Why Send Newborn Babies to Prison If We Don't Have To?

Categories: Schutze

Stop me if I told you this already. Oh, hah-hah, it's print, isn't it? You can't stop me. Well then just bear with me. In American schools, kids learn to read from kindergarten through the third grade. From fourth grade on, they read to learn.

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South Carolina Minority Affairs
Poor kids don't have to wind up in prison. They do have to be able to read by third grade.

Kids who can't read by fourth grade never really know what school is about. A book is a brick. A classroom is a jail. All teachers are boring.

Statistically and for the great mass of children, the ones who can't read at grade-level by the end of third grade are toast. Toast. Forget about it. Don't even tell me about remediation.

Yes, some kids can catch up with remedial instruction. But the money and the time are not there to do it on a mass scale. The kids most likely not to read at grade level go home every afternoon to corrosive environments anyway. Most of them are already on what The Children's Defense Fund calls the "cradle to prison pipeline."

Significant brain development is complete by about third grade. By the third grade, children know if they are mainstream people or marginal people. A 2011 national longitudinal study by the Annie E. Casey Foundation found that high school students who did not read at grade level in the third grade are four times more likely to drop out before graduation than those who did. One in three black and one in six Latino boys born in 2001 are at risk of imprisonment during their lifetimes.

Depressing, what? Yeah, but that's why I was so struck by what I thought was a bit of amazingly great news in the 2013 "Community Achievement Scorecard," a report on public schools in Dallas County just published by Commit!, a Dallas-based research and advocacy group.

Toward the end the report is a dot graph with one dot for each of 425 campuses. It measures two things -- the percentage of kids who read at grade level at the end of the third grade in each school and where that school falls on the poverty index.

Not surprisingly, as you move to the right and the campuses get poorer and poorer, the percentage of kids at third-grade reading proficiency falls. But, wait, the dots also spread out way more as you move to the right.

This is a point I think Commit! Director Todd Williams made to me at least a year ago, and I guess it sort of went in one ear and maybe out a nostril or something. The greatest spread in reading proficiency is at the poorest end of the scale.

So what? This what: that means some of the poorest school are way at the bottom of the proficiency index. But others are almost up at the top. What does that mean? It means everything.

Think about it, and let's just focus on the schools at the bottom of the poverty scale. Same demographic for all. We can assume, I think, that the same environmental and family issues are at work on all of these kids. So why are some entire schools way at the top of proficiency and others way at the bottom?

The schools! The schools are the difference. The teachers, the principals, the rest of the adults in that building, something they are doing is enough to profoundly change the destinies of these children.

All that stuff about everything being up to the parents, all of those arguments about demographics being destiny, all of those stories about kids who can't be taught: none of that is true.

Look at it again. Same kids. Same demographics. Same social and family dynamics. But some schools bring them to grade-level reading proficiency at the end of the third grade, making them into little mainstream people and not little marginal people, taking them out of the cradle to prison pipeline. And some schools do not.

Somebody knows how to do it. Somebody is doing it here in Dallas County.

The Commit! chart has a legend at the top that says, "Identify school practices that are creating an environment of outlier student success." That means go to the successful schools, see how they do it and carry that lesson to the failed schools.

The failures are real, and the consequences are horrific. Those Children's Defense Fund numbers mean that you and I could get an ink stamp, go down to the maternity ward right now, walk down through the rows of babies and stamp "PRISON" on the forehead of every third black baby. If we could find a hospital where all of of the black babies were poor, we could stamp it on most of them. And that does not have to be. We know how to snatch those babies up off that horrible conveyor belt and save a hell of a lot of them.

When I finished reading the Commit! report, I sat for a long while and thought about how focusing on failure lets us all off the hook, because if we look only at the failed schools we can tell ourselves nothing can be done. Might as well go back to the ballgame.

But if we force ourselves to look at the successful schools and we see that nothing is inevitable and everything can be done, then how can we live with ourselves until every single baby that can be rescued has been rescued?


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99 comments
thinkforaminute
thinkforaminute

"Think about it, and let's just focus on the schools at the bottom of the poverty scale. Same demographic for all. We can assume, I think, that the same environmental and family issues are at work on all of these kids. So why are some entire schools way at the top of proficiency and others way at the bottom?"


Think about this:  Are we really lumping every disproportionately low-income campus under "same environmental and family issues"?  To think for a minute that the outliers' "best practices"  Mr. Williams refers to are the proprietary special sauce of certain teachers and administrators is just ridiculous.  Many DISD campuses are experiencing such high turnover that research based on campus practices and changing populations is is laughable.  


Take a look at the language practices, reading habits, and literacy environment in the home and community settings for successful and failing students, and you can draw a few conclusions from that.  


Please be careful before you jump whole hog on this bandwagon:  "The schools! The schools are the difference."


Of course the schools make a difference.  But realize that reading isn't rocket science, and yet shooting for grade-level reading proficiency by third grade is a tough, uphill climb when children come to school out of a language-poor home without strong vocabularies or parent support.  Then put them into schools where the routines and structure does not allow for deep, sustained reading, conversation and vocabulary acquisition.  Good luck with that.

gordonhilgers
gordonhilgers

Years ago, a friend, awarded for her teaching, received the consequent benefit for exemplary pedagogic skill: Highland Park hired her, her income soared, and then "difficulties" reared their nasty heads.  Not only did the school from which she had "emerged", a school in far South Dallas, have better disciplined children, the kids in the Highland Park school, according to her, made "Animal House" look like CSPAN in comparison. 

"I could deal with that," she admitted, "because I'm tough and know how to discipline students, but at the Highland Park school, the kids had a special weapon: their parents." 

Indeed, were she to do something so rash as to issue a detention, helicopter mommy (code name: Puff the Magic Dragon of Vietnam search and destroy fame) and uber-lawyer daddy (what's a "little teacher" compared to jackrolling the Japanese at the Uruguay Round of the GATT talks anyway?) rolled-up to the school in their luxury autos, threatened to sue the school, the principal, and that exemplary teacher.  Threats of litigation as parenting: Who would have thunk it?


Moral of story?  Sometimes, and often most times, it is the parents and their derpy children who are either responsible or irresponsible--not the school, the program or the teacher.  Sure.  There are "social or cultural" factors such as "access" to better, more consistent and more refined family atmosphere, some families having a stronger reading and educational tradition than others, but the bottom line is that, if the parents don't have the time or the devotion to sit their children down and ensure they do their homework and sit down to read rather than playing some Kill The Enemy, First Blood, Part 257,586 amped-up video games, the child loses.  And will continue to lose. 


The teacher eventually left the money on the table and returned to teaching in South Dallas--where she actually stood a Chinaman's chance in Hell of getting her job done without those "Beverly Hillbillies 90210" parents lording themselves over her.

Education always has a family component because education (and self-discipline) begin at home.  So does anarchy. 

Its_So_Sad
Its_So_Sad

The reading issue is critical.

Good teachers, principals and schools make all the difference.

So why does Mike Miles', and DISD's, strategy of a "one size fits all" teaching method find such favor with you?

Teachers are being pushed out of the district for not following the prescribed format, not because the student achievement is lacking.

I would love to see the successes being celebrated and emulated. Instead there is a massive push for more charters, which have not shown to do any better at teaching than the public schools.

One point made in the comments is near prophetic: charters have the ability to expel the problem children. So in the long run, the public school will become the 'alternative school' to the charters; concentrating all of the low performing and difficult to educate students in one place.

Then we can all point to the 'failing public schools' from which our wonderful charter schools have saved us!

ozonelarryb
ozonelarryb

Gavin, can u explain how this says 75 comments, but there are only 10???

EricCeleste
EricCeleste

Glad you called this out, Jim. We discussed this chart in our D Mag leadership thingie debate last week w/Commit! people, a board member, and a teacher's union rep. It's incredibly important. I hope the video goes online this week on Frontburner so people can see a discussion about it and other Commit! findings. P.s.: hate that exclamation point.

JimSX
JimSX topcommenter

I sort of hate to suggest that anybody should read through these comments, but I do. There is an interesting phenomenon at work here, which is the inability or refusal of the racist/Rush Limbaugh mentality to engage objective reality.

The core concept here is “control” in an experiment. If you take one poor all-black school in South Dallas and measure it against a second poor all-black school in South Dallas, then you have controlled for the factor of “poor all-black in South Dallas.”

If you find a material discrepancy in student performance between the two, then the cause or explanation for that discrepancy cannot be “poor all-black in South Dallas,” because you have controlled for that factor. If one school has students who are high-performing, then you know that “poor all-black in South Dallas” is not a factor that dictates low performance.

For decades now, at least since the mid-1990s, researchers have been looking at the so-called outlier or anomalous schools, here, in the Valley, all over America – schools where demographics ought to dictate low performance but performance instead is high --  to see if there are consistent observable themes, and they have found many – effective principals who inspire a school culture that makes kids want to succeed, tough discipline and a lot of drill-and-kill rote learning to take advantage of the marvelous capacity of pre-third grade kids to pack in information by rote, catching them up that way with middle class kids who show up for kindergarten already reading-ready.

The bottom line is that poor all-black in South Dallas kids can be brought to the same level of reading and arithmetic proficiency by the end of the third grade, an all important way point, as rich white kids in the suburbs, for the same money in the same buildings we have now, and with many of the same teachers, if those teachers are capable of truly believing that the kids can do it.

If the teachers are burned out and just flat do not believe poor all-black in South Dallas kids can be smart and can achieve, then the kids read all of that in the teacher’s eyes and it’s hopeless for everybody.

All of this is what Mike Miles knows and is trying to put into effect in Dallas schools. He is opposed by teachers unions that are doing what unions are supposed to do – defend the people, who’ve got the jobs now. (Don’t get mad at unions for doing what they are paid to do.)He is also opposed by elected black leaders who are defending their own positions and influence but who may also, some of them, have internalized the teachings of racism in their own hearts, and do not believe that their own children can or should be push-push-pushed to be as smart as white kids. And then you have the white racists.

What is interesting here to me, in these comments, is the way the white racist Limbaugh mentality bumps up against the very simplest of statistical concepts – control – and just stops, goes stupid and can’t get it. You tell them, “We have controlled for economic and social background.” And they say, “I think the answer is economic and social background.” I don’t think their issue is I.Q., at least not native I.Q. It’s race.

Racism is not a philosophy. It is a mental health problem. You can be born pretty smart, but if you work really really hard at becoming stupid, you will get there some day.     

dmtrousd
dmtrousd

I can attest to the variability of school quality. We moved around a lot when I was growing up, so I got to sample some of the best and worst schools in Texas, private and public. And it's amazing the difference it makes to be taught by bright, energetic teachers v. apathetic and

unqualified ones.

WhyDontYouJoinNAMBLA
WhyDontYouJoinNAMBLA

Why send them to prison when they could have been aborted instead? Liberals love the womb to the sewer pipeline. 

JimSX
JimSX topcommenter

What this discussion really illustrates is that people who view reality through the prism of race cannot and will not recognize data, science, math, logic or reality itself. In other words, racism makes people stupid.

PlanoDave
PlanoDave

No expert here, but perhaps the difference is in the level of engagement of the parents.


My sister and I could both read l before entering first grade.  Both my girls could read before entering first grade.  My mom read to me every day and encouraged me to read along.  I did the same with my girls.  My sister did the same with her kids.  We all got the same results.  My in-laws did the same and got the same results.


It seems to me that the commitment to the success of one's own children is the primary factor, not the schools.  I would love to see a study that showed the number of books owned in a home along with whether or not the children are "reading at grade level or above".





commiebiker
commiebiker

Why Send Newborn Babies to Prison If We Don't Have To?   Cause there is no death penalty for children?

JimSX
JimSX topcommenter

The hard nut here for many commenters is this: the data reported by Commit! for Dallas County echo decades of data from all over the country showing that so-called "anomalous" or "outlier" schools take the very same kids as failed schools, same ethnicity, same economic background, even the same kinds of neighborhoods, and teach them to grade level, while other schools do not. In those instances, the difference cannot be the parents or the home environment, because those factors are all the same. The successful schools show that it is simply untrue that kids from very tough backgrounds cannot be taught. They can be taught to the same proficiency at the end of the third grade as rich white kids. The jury is in, the science is in. This isn't a gray area.  

JimSX
JimSX topcommenter

@Its_So_Sad  

The "one size fits all" thing is a canard. Miles and his people are the ones who are out there measuring what works and trying to transfer it to places that need help. On the other hand, every large institution needs to be managed. People working in as failed an institution as urban public education simply have no grounds on which to demand not to be managed. I keep hearing this mantra about how teachers need to be treated as professionals. One thing professionals know is that when there's a new sheriff in town, they're going to have to change the way they carry out their profession. Anyway, none of this is about that. It's all about seniority pay/merit pay. The rest is cover-story bullshit.  

JimSX
JimSX topcommenter

@EricCeleste  

YEAH, BUT i'M NOT GOOD ENOUGH TO BE ON YOUR PODCAST I GUESS.

thinkforaminute
thinkforaminute

@JimSX:  You said:  "The bottom line is that poor all-black in South Dallas kids can be brought to the same level of reading and arithmetic proficiency by the end of the third grade, an all important way point, as rich white kids in the suburbs, for the same money in the same buildings we have now, and with many of the same teachers, if those teachers are capable of truly believing that the kids can do it."


It is tricky to say this without getting stoned to death, but I'm going for it:  No, they can't.   Not through school alone, and certainly not with the same campus cultures, supplies and buildings they're in now in Dallas ISD.  It's a math thing.  If I come from Lakewood, and spend my days and nights consistently ensuring that my child is in an environment with constant, high-quality conversation, a large, rich lexicon and lots of books, arts, nature and science experiences, cultural experiences, etc., and I put him in the same elementary school with a first-generation US-born kid from a Spanish-language household where mom is a housecleaner with a third-grade education and dad is a roofer, unless mom and dad are totally on it, the immigrant's child will start behind, and is likely to continue to lag.  In any low-income family, while some are much stronger than others, there is often a pronounced gap in the parenting skills and language/guidance strategies employed between those parents and middle- to upper- middle class  families.  


I don't just believe my kids can learn to read proficiently, I am absolutely certain that most can learn to read fluently.  I also know it will take heaven and earth to do it where, instead of being read to every single night from in the womb through primary grades, a parent's idea of guidance and the limit of responsibility is a sound-bite, however charming:  "I brought you into this world, and I can take you out."  

cynicalmetroplexual
cynicalmetroplexual

@JimSX  

This discussion reminds me of a documentary of sorts that was produced a few years
ago where various religious leaders and noted philosophers were asked
meaning of life questions. The explanations were all vague and lacked any kind of
an empirical nugget that people looking for answers could grasp onto. No data, no
formulae, just speculation and a lot of new age gibberish.

Jim and most commenters don't seem to be too much of gibberish peddlers and while there has been
some data mentioned it isn't well documented in the article and I would wager would be contradicted
by other data that could be found with a few mouse clicks.

No one has yet come up with a formula or system that can guarantee educational achievement for all public
school students. You can argue nature vs. nurture and score valid points for eacy view. You can argue
parental involvement, motivated caring teachers, standardized curriculae, TAS till you are blue in the face.

Nothing is going to provide the huge academic shift that most folks want. Smaller incremental but valuable
improvements that could be realized but those are always going to be hampered by politics, money and turf
battles. The status quo has not produced equality of outcome, the refromers hired to reform are being fought
and prosecuted, nothing will change for years to come. It's democracy, self deluded, self serving leadership,
racial politics, etc.

I agree with the concept that we are who we are by the end of third grade and no child should be promoted to
4th grade who can't read at level and do ordinary simple arithmetic.

RTGolden1
RTGolden1 topcommenter

@JimSX So, rather than address me and point out the errors in my assumptions, which are not racist by the way, you are simply going to brand me racist and be done with it?


I'm not arguing that poor-black or poor-hispanic or even poor-white kids can't be brought up to equal standing with the rich-white kids educationally.  I know they can.  My own poor-mixed kids have done so in schools that are arguably worse than DISD schools.  In their schools, English is not just taught as a second language, it IS a second language.  Their reading and writing skills in English are above US averages, and it isn't due to the schools they're in; it's due to family and parental involvement.  We wouldn't LET them fail.


Take your racism back home and choke on it.

PlanoDave
PlanoDave

@JimSX With the exception of the racism comments, what you are saying resonates as true.  100%.


Quit trying to determine the motives behind people who disagree with you, though.  We all have different backgrounds and different perspectives.  It is OK to disagree with somebody, why does it have to lead to demonizing?

ruddski
ruddski

@Jim

Conflating Limbaugh with racism as you have really isn't necessary, it's really quite beneath your professionalism.

I might point out that at least one commenter here who simply does not understand what you're pointing out in regards to this study regularly conflates Limbaugh/racism ( or Beck/Racism, whatever) as you have. Shall we assume y'all are peas in a pod?

In such an interesting and important discussion, why throw in such a troll- like distraction?

And this is coming from someone who regularly disagrees with you (and trolls and mocks), but understands the point you're making.

RTGolden1
RTGolden1 topcommenter

@JimSX You're the only one who keeps bringing up race.  Well, you and our token racist.  I see people talking about family involvement, parental investment and employment as issues.  

Gotta make sure those filters aren't blocking your vision, Jim.

whitelibtardguilt
whitelibtardguilt

Wrong. The schools that improved could simply be LYING and CHEATING. A bunch of black schools in Atlanta raised their scores too. How did they do that!?!?

Golly gosh gee whiz shucks, I'm just a naive old naive hippie burnout naive libtard propaganda blogger who hasn't lived in the real world or had a real job since I white-fled from Detroit to Dallas for a job in sanctimonious naive white libtard blogging,, and I just can't figure it out! It must be a miracle.

mavdog
mavdog topcommenter

@JimSX

I'd have to say the answer is in the classrooms themselves, the teachers who are on the front lines.

It's not unlike any other endeavor, it is all about the management plan and those responsible for the execution.

ruddski
ruddski

What I have a hard time understanding is, with all this data available for so long, why can't we identify the common problem?

If we can fake putting a man on the moon....

I'm tellin' ya - food deserts!

ruddski
ruddski

@bvckvs

Read Jim's post again. Three times if you have to.

Myrna.Minkoff-Katz
Myrna.Minkoff-Katz topcommenter

@PlanoDave  "Quit trying to determine the motives behind people who disagree with you, though.  We all have different backgrounds and different perspectives.  It is OK to disagree with somebody, why does it have to lead to demonizing?"


That's actually a perfect lecture for Ruddski.  May I use it?

mavdog
mavdog topcommenter

@ruddski

"Conflating Limbaugh with racism as you have really isn't necessary"

clearly you are not grasping what was written.

the racism being referenced isn't the type symbolized by white hoods and segregation, it is outlined in this part of the post:

"the way the white racist Limbaugh mentality bumps up against the very simplest of statistical concepts – control – and just stops, goes stupid and can’t get it. You tell them, “We have controlled for economic and social background.” And they say, “I think the answer is economic and social background.”I don’t think their issue is I.Q., at least not native I.Q. It’s race."

the "Limbaugh mentality" that I believe Jim is talking about is the inability to  view the issue outside the confines of race, for they view the issue as if the poor minority population is monolitic. The data shows there is a wide spectrum of results within the poor minority pop of kids, but the Limbaugh type mentality can't bring themselves to get beyond their presumptions and open their minds.

Myrna.Minkoff-Katz
Myrna.Minkoff-Katz topcommenter

Rush Limbaugh:
[To an African American female caller]: “Take that bone out of your nose and call me back.”
“The NAACP should have riot rehearsal. They should get a liquor store and practice robberies.”
“Look, let me put it to you this way: the NFL all too often looks like a game between the Bloods and the Crips without any weapons. There, I said it.”
“They’re 12 percent of the population. Who the hell cares?”

ruddski
ruddski

@bvckvs

Jim is pointing out that the study compares apples to apples. Since these low-performing schools are majority minority, it's kind of hard to ignore that they are majority minority, but it's not the thrust of the study.

dmtrousd
dmtrousd

Chem trails, man. Chem trails.

thinkforaminute
thinkforaminute

@bvckvs @JimSX  We teach to tests that are supposed to measure how well the child can answer questions tied to certain taught "objectives."  "The student will be able to tell a noun from a verb," for example.


So, the question is careen, canteen.  Which is the verb?  The scores come back, the teacher is made to tailor lessons to telling nouns from verbs.  (Would that it were so simple.)  But the child has responded without understanding the vocabulary, so the question of the objective is irrelevant, and the test isn't measuring what it is supposed to measure.  And here we are, from Todd Williams to Jim Schutze to the mayor to even the pope, maybe, misdiagnosing and mistreating the illness.  


So we make teaching a poorly-paid, high-stress, low-reward occupation that even the good ones are unlikely to dedicate themselves to out of self defense.  Keep moving the bar, changing the SAT to be even more closely tied to so-called standards based teaching that takes place in classrooms with temporary teachers, a refusal on the part of leadership to handle the more serious disruptions in the classrooms, and no dictionaries in sight.  How can that be a formula for success?  


Even if the schools were much less dysfunctional, public school would not be a panacea, and never has been.  There is a huge difference between what takes place between birth and third grade in the life of children in different circumstances.  Being in school even ten hours a day, with diluted work and attention that that entails, is no cure for a bad environment the rest of the time.  We all know stories of first-generation immigrant success through the gift of public education.  This social milieu does not equate with that scenario.  


What next, if this thinking continues:  we mandate court-ordered boarding school for the 85% who aren't projected to be functioning by 3rd grade?  Another cradle to confinement/pipeline to a prison of a different type.


PlanoDave
PlanoDave

@Myrna.Minkoff-Katz As long as you realize that you would be highly hypocritical to do so, feel free to use it.

I don't know you, and you may be a very nice person, but you seem to be quick to assign motives behind intellectual disagreement.

My bet is that you have the intelligence to discuss the points on their merit, but this fucking internet culture is driving people to drop intelligent thought in favor of quick snarkiness.  It is really screwing up our national discourse.

ruddski
ruddski

@Myrna

Recall the last time I pointed out that you posted many comments, NONE of which were on the topic raised by the article, all were about Ruddski? Did you realize that I was 100 percent correct?

Recall that it was all about ME, your assumptions about my life, your assumptions about my MOTIVE? all about demonizing ME?

Well, hon, so far your "contribution" here is following the same pattern. Do you not realize that?

GAA214
GAA214

@ruddski  Parental involvement.  In some households there are no parents or guardians. 

Just-Sharon
Just-Sharon

@mavdog You are wrong.  I am right and let me explain why.  I served as a Marine in both Iraq and Vietnam.  I am not a racist.  I could have made millions with my Doctorate from Harvard but I decided to feed Black homeless children in a soup kitchen that I not only owned but operated. 

Just-Sharon
Just-Sharon

@mavdog

Rush Limbaugh is not a racist.Nor am I.I personally taught 3 of my Black brothers how to speak English while we lived in our mansion in Tokyo.

If you hate Rush, you must be an idiot and a libtard.The Black media lied about him taking 100 Oxycotin a day.I use to be a Pharmacist in Fort Lauderdale would fill his prescriptions on a regular basis.

mavdog
mavdog topcommenter

@ruddski  

"On reading Jim's original post I cited both those reasons, and further noted that it sure was an interesting study, and with all the stats, it doesn't have any smoking gun, but it sure raises questions."

really? let's review:

Probably something to do with nutrition, which is a major factor in early brain development.

Bet there's a correlation between food deserts and poor schools

I'm tellin' ya - food deserts!

oh, there's this self-promotion

Yeah, whoever started this "parental responsibility" crap (I'm looking at you Ruddski) is full of it.

the typical Ruddski Obama reference.

and the post that aligns you with whitelibtardguilt (congrats btw)

The problem IS diversity, but within that diversity is a common problem - we evidently can't find it.

and yet you still miss the "limbaugh racism" context

ruddski
ruddski

@mavdog

This is what I and others, white, black, Asian, conservative, liberal have claimed for years:

The answer in part is parental involvement.

The answer in part is single-parent households (kinda ties in with #1, ya think?)

This does not rule out other factors, I and others just find them among the most compelling because they are relatively new societal directions.

On reading Jim's original post I cited both those reasons, and further noted that it sure was an interesting study, and with all the stats, it doesn't have any smoking gun, but it sure raises questions.

Oddly, this is exactly what you are accusing me of. Knee-jerk much?

I used the term "Schutze racists" to show that it's was an unnecessary knee-jerk. provocation, descriptor, term, whatever you want to call it, that was the POINT.

To call someone racist because they believe the multitudes of studies, simply because this one study "raises questions" is just plain silly.

mavdog
mavdog topcommenter

@ruddski

not only did you not grasp Schultze's piece, with your mischaracterzations of what I penned you show you didn't get my words either. a twofor! well done.

You assert that the answer is parental involvement. While noone as I can see has disputed the important role that parental involvement has on kids and their success, that alone is unlikely to be the answer to the question.

you also  rush to blame single parent households, which also are not likely the answer all by itself.

The study prompts questions, and you clearly are all too eager to supply knee jerk answers (and inane soundbites such as "the Schultze racists")....which seems to be the point of the original article btw. thanks for proving his point.

ruddski
ruddski

@mavdog

I have solved no puzzle, nor do I have claimed to. I claim that parental involvement is important to success, and that single-parent households make that more difficult.

There are oodles of studies proving this.

If you believe this study negates that, and you believe that parental involvement is irrelevant, and that single-parent households are no different than traditional, fine.

You'll be an outlier, and your mind is closed, and you can join the Schulze racists.

ruddski
ruddski

@Myrna

You're proving my point to Jim. Now, be a good little tool, go to a hater website and find at least 3000 words about Limbaugh to pollute this thread to REALLY get your hate on. Jim will appreciate the support!

As long as you want to make the thread about Limbaugh, remember when he was paraphrasing and mocking liberal views towards Hispanics, then the Obama campaign took those words and put them in an ad claiming that those were Limbaugh's views of Hispanics? IOW, they blatantly lied

Do you think that was

A) funny

B) perfectly acceptable

C) despicable

D) Give me a sec, skeezix, I'll find a rationale for lying.

mavdog
mavdog topcommenter

@ruddski

congratulations, apparently in your mind you have solved the puzzle of why there is this variance in poor minority students performance in the study! without any evidence on the family composition of the kids to back up your conclusion that is MUST be single parent vs. dual parent led households, you say it must be the case. Heck, who needs research and data when we have you?

I repeat what jim wrote: We have controlled for economic and social background.” And they say, “I think the answer is economic and social background.” Well done!

As for "discussing Limbaugh now", you seem to be the one preoccupied with him. Neither Jim nor I focused on Limbaugh himself. The use of Limbaugh's name wasn't done with Limbaugh the person being the subject but illustrative of the closed minded habit of some people. If you understood the point of the article you'd get that, but that requires you to be open minded.

Myrna.Minkoff-Katz
Myrna.Minkoff-Katz topcommenter

@ruddski  Nice try, Skeezix.  What you did was to try to belittle Jim for "conflating", as you said, Limbaugh with racism.  Limbaugh proves quite convincingly by his own comments that he is a racist, which makes your statement quite foolish indeed.

WhyDontYouJoinNAMBLA
WhyDontYouJoinNAMBLA

@mavdog  It has been lefties like Jim telling us all that crime is caused by poverty and poverty is caused by being black, for the past 30 years.

ruddski
ruddski

@mavdog

You miss my point.

Firstly, I'm one who understands Jim's post, it's not that difficult to get it. Secondly, I've explained the point to a couple of folks, one of which could be described as a Limbaugh-hater.

So why invoke Limbaugh?

Thirdly, just because this study has some mystery component that has yet to be identified does not in any way negate or discredit the argument that parental involvement at home and/or with their kids' school. Urging responsible parenting is not "racism", it's common sense.

And anyone familiar with Limbaugh knows that if he invokes race at all, he invokes statistics particular to race - such as the percentage of black kids born to or raised in single-parent (mom) households. I do that as well, which is one reasone I get called racist here.

If anyone thinks the alarm and concern over that statistic is exclusive to Limbaugh, or whites, they're simply not paying attention, it's a concern echoed across the ideological spectrum, by blacks and whites alike because it's rather undeniable.

I suspect, because we Limbaugh racists go further to pin the single-parenthood debacle of the black community on the liberal welfare-state mentality has something to do with it.

IOW, to criticize policy promoted by white liberals that harms the black community is "racism"

Get it?

Notice that we're discussing Limbaugh now, and not the study? THAT was my central point to Jim.

ruddski
ruddski

all out of context. The old trick.

you racists are really despicable, you lie and you're proud of it.

color is all you see, character means nothing. That, s why you're so easily manipulated, I do it all the time.

mavdog
mavdog topcommenter

@bvckvs

those are some very, very tinted rose colored glasses you are wearing.

it is virtually impossible for the claim "Teachers at Dallas ISD are all of about the same quality" to be accurate.

ruddski
ruddski

@ozonelarryb

PB&S is a Mojave treat because they don't come any other way. It tends to be windy there.

Off-on-topic. According to NPR, when the food-desert situation is remedied and food-desert communities are provided with food-oases, the people still prefer wandering the food-desert. IOW, you can lead a camel to water, but he'll still want a Big Mac, Fries and a Dr. Pepper.

The only answer is totalitarian measures, like we see with Obamacare, people often have to be forced to accept what they demand. IOW, we're going to have to force the arugula down their throats, so to speak.

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