The Not-So-Great Generation: War Among Old White People is Killing America

Categories: Schutze

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The papers are crammed these last few days with thoughtful essays about the split in the Republican Party. I read them all with a certain shrug. Yeah, fine, but what about the split in my life?

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Library of Congress
Even when the white-haired ladies weave it out of posies, it's still the Stars and Bars.

Earlier in the week I ran into a lady I have known for 30 years. We're not close, I guess, but our personal lives have crisscrossed on numerous occasions. She said at one point, "I feel so alone. I can't talk to anybody anymore."

She told me a very sad story about a lifelong friend and colleague she had to just stop talking to recently. I told her the same thing had happened to me. I had to tell a guy I have known and liked for 30 years not to call or write any more.

Look, I know it's only anecdotal, but I hear these stories more and more, as if we were in an America of 150 years ago torn by civil war. And who are we? Old white people. These are just very hard times for social and even familial relationships among old white people.

On the one hand you have the Tea Party types, who are absolutely convinced the country is headed for hell in a hand-basket. On the other side you have people like me who think the Tea Party is the hand-basket.

More and more, it just isn't even possible to talk across that line. Of course I'm tempted to blame it all on the other side and say the Tea Party people refuse to speak rationally and turn every discussion of every single issue into an opening for personal invective and character assassination.

But in the wake of the last week, I have to admit the feelings of people on my side of the line are pretty damned personal. We are beginning to take the Tea Party people seriously as a threat to the stability and well-being of the nation. We see them, I guess, in just the way people on the Union side viewed the rebels. As traitors.

That's personal. But it's also very important. If it's true, if Ted Cruz is the leader of a constituency committed to the destruction of the nation, then Ted Cruz and his followers are traitors.

And, please, let me hasten to say I do understand the other side of it. They think I'm the traitor -- people like me. They think we're the hand-basket.

Is it really mainly about old white people, or am I just viewing it through the prism of my own experience? I think it's about old white people first, and it's a question of which ones got the memo.

We were born into a world at the middle of the last century when white people inherited a huge free pass on life compared with everybody else, almost as if we could show up at the State Fair, and they'd say, "Oh, you're white, you don't have to buy a ticket. G'wan in."

All of that has changed. The world is much more diverse. The playing field is flatter. The gates are open wider. Those of us old white people who lived through the change didn't always handle it with grace and aplomb. But I really don't think many or any of us would go back to the way it was if given the chance. A lot of old white people are a lot cooler than some people might think.

But, wow, some old white people definitely did not get the memo. They walked outside the day Obama got elected and said, "Hey, what are all these colored people doing around here?" I don't know how they missed the memo, but they did. And now their attitude seems to be that they would rather pull the country down than accept the world as it is today.

That's serious. People who want to pull the country down are serious. We can't go on as if this were all a friendly political debate over the backyard fence. And maybe there is no demographic group for whom it is more serious than old white people. Maybe we are the ones who must make the split and identify the enemy so everybody else can.

Yeah, I know, you're not supposed to use that word, enemy. It's all supposed to be about peace and reconciliation. But think about it: We just barely stopped them -- barely and at the last minute -- when they had torches to the house. I'm not sure you can go straight from torches to peace and reconciliation.

It's all very painful at a deeply personal level, friend against friend, family member against family member, just as it must have been in 1863. Maybe that's how it has to be.

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251 comments
BarelyBiased
BarelyBiased

The Tea-party folks see you as the traitors. The question is: which one really is? My money is on you folks, but that won't matter. You'll likely have the numbers on your side in the end and that's what makes the difference. It'll be a matter of might makes right rather than right makes right.

Pecos45
Pecos45

And yes, I view the Tea Party and much of the GOP as treasonous, mean-spirited traitors. They must be resisted at every turn.

Pecos45
Pecos45

Best line in your article, Jim, "They would rather pull the country down than accept the world as it is today."


Reality bites, and I hope it bites the GOP in their fat, white, asses the next election.

Then they could all move back to Germany and hold their conventions in the beer halls!!!

MrJones
MrJones

That ain't the stars and bars, sport.

MikeAllen
MikeAllen

Texas was a confederate state, and the older white population was raised to believe their ancestors were right and the north was wrong. Fast forward to our liberal democratic/socialism state run by a Muslim named Hussein leading this doomed society, and there is fear hate and anger running  rampant among these people. As for me, the Stars and Bars forever and all you hippies and liberals can suck my dick!!

justabil
justabil

You are talking about a few people, let's say Ted Cruz and Rupert Murdoch, as if they were traitors to America. This would be true if they were Americans, rather than Canadian and Australian respectively. Maybe it's a deliberate attack.

scottindallas
scottindallas topcommenter

Both of you, most of us are suckers for easy answers.  That's the problem.  Policy is a difficult balancing of these forces/arguments.   But, we're increasingly offered easy answers.  I'm arguably the last Capitalist.   No gov't is a road to serfdom, just as too much.  I've not heard ANYONE argue for the limited gov't I've argued for, while defending gov'ts essential role.  People like to be pandered to, rather than challenged and engaged.  I can't help you.  You people have all turned your back on me for wanting to discuss nuance, for being too serious, for being on point.  But, no, people aren't willing to discuss politics or much else without getting angry, and emotional. 

Catbird
Catbird

Interesting observation and it’s sort of true except that it’s a trick that all of us old white people are going to have to discover for ourselves and figure a way around.

My thesis is that America is not now and has never really been a “two party” democracy but is actually a “one party” monocracy designed by the corporations who own the government and the politicians who sell it to convince us that we are still fighting the civil war.

They want us divided. They want the races to fear and hate one another and do everything they can to dial the media rhetoric up to do as much as possible to bring us blows.

“If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon...”  How's that for rhetoric to light your fire?

While we’ve been busy fighting our very own “semi-cold” race war, the Monocracy has been dong a great job converting the country into a fascist police state and since the murder of JFK, no matter who you vote for, the path is always the same.

Obama is the black Bush, Bush is the stupid Clinton, Clinton was the horn-dog Daddy Bush, Bush was the New World Order Reagan, Reagan was the was the Cold War Carter, Carter was the 55 MPH Ford, Ford was the apologist who pardoned Nixon...and all of it has progressively has lead us to the mess we're in today.

I fought the war all through my 20’s, 30’s, 40’s and 50’s and I can see now that all of it was a flat out hoax. It seems to me that now our real common cause ought to be the restoration of the individual liberty and the Bill of Rights that was taken from us by the Bush/Cheney Patriot Act.

My advice to old white people: Fight the Power by listening seriously to the lyrics of Dr. Griff and Public Enemy, take note of the actual fruit of your Republican heroes (we’re in this mess right now because of Bush/Cheney/Rumsfeld/Rice) and next election vote against the Republican incumbent.

Not much I know but it’s all I can think of.

ruddski
ruddski

"oh, you're Mexican, you don't have to buy a ticket. C'mon in."

TheCredibleHulk
TheCredibleHulk topcommenter

Quite a shitstorm, Jim.

You can always tell when you hit a tender spot by the ensuing yelping it provokes.

holmantx
holmantx topcommenter

The Yuppies discriminate by class, not race.  For instance, Lakewood is a predominantly white neighborhood however this condition is driven by socio-economic reasons, not race.  They do it by pricing out the poor.  And it is intentional.  Highland Park hugs all races, so long as they can qualify to buy a house in their fair city.

Not a lot of subsidized housing or homeless shelters in Lakewood for a reason.  NIMBY.

Of course, this does not fit the template where by the Left thinks they can win an argument by forcing anyone that does not agree with them to prove a negative.

They don't realize that by invoking a slur, whether false or just an unprovable negative proposition, they have already lost the argument.  This highly charged accusation however does enable some modicum of glee - it allows them to testify to their own terrific goodness by excluding all others.

And that includes the poor.

GAA214
GAA214

"We were born into a world at the middle of the last century when white people inherited a huge free pass on life compared with everybody else, almost as if we could show up at the State Fair, and they'd say, "Oh, you're white, you don't have to buy a ticket. G'wan in."

All of that has changed. The world is much more diverse. The playing field is flatter. The gates are open wider. Those of us old white people who lived through the change didn't always handle it with grace and aplomb." Hear Hear.   General Schutze is more American than apple pie.  

http://www.newrepublic.com/article/112365/     A must read

thenation.com


animas
animas

The irony of our contemporary problem is specifically:1) that those who completely trust the govt. come from environments where the government has behaved in untrustrworthy ways (past or present). 2) those who distrust the government have experienced the advantages of government working at its best.  So Professor Schutze, is there an explanation?

Lurch
Lurch

There are two kinds of old people: those who have kept up with the times and kept themselves physically and mentally alert, and those who have not kept up and fear everything unfamiliar to them, see a conspiracy behind everything, and want things to be like they were in 1980 so they don't have to think (teabags).

killwhiteprivilege
killwhiteprivilege

Jim, you child-sex-slavery profiteer, since you hate whites so much, perhaps things will go better for you in your old age if you move back to Detroit, from whence you white-flighted.

I'm sure being a feeble old white man in a black-majority city would be right up your alley, and you'd almost certainly get attacked by one (or more) of your precious "people of color" eventually, which would be poetic justice for all the damage you've done with your child-sex-slave profiteering and libtard propaganda.

killwhiteprivilege
killwhiteprivilege

It's always funny to see Jim Schutze, the child-sex-slave profiteer, trying to hop up on his imaginary moral high horse.

Jim, you are absolute scum. For years you made the bulk of your money off the backpage ads for child-sex-slaves and looked the other way.

A lump of dog shit has more moral authority than you do, and you should kill yourself to atone for what you have done (while you still can).

You are a profiteer off of child sex-slavery and it is coming back to haunt you.

holmantx
holmantx topcommenter

The TEA (taxed enough already) phenomenon is a grass-roots revolt that materialized as a natural result of oppressive taxation at a time when Americans could least afford to pay it.  It is not the first time this has occurred:

The Forgotten Tax Revolt of the 1930s


Pecos45
Pecos45

@MikeAllen 

Last time I looked, the Confederates lost.

So get off of here, you loser.

rkm200
rkm200

@MikeAllen  Well, maybe you should move to Russia and away from this "doomed society".  I hear they run quite a tight ship over there.

Hippies? Really? hahahaha.

unclejeems
unclejeems

@MikeAllen Isn't that sweet.  A gay teabagger.  

And oh, by the way, the South lost.  It was defeated, crushed, exterminated, extirpated from American soil, finished off, beaten down with an iron hammer, tarred and feathered and run out of town.  Grant kicked the hell out of Lee and Sherman danced through Georgia.  Get over it.  The South shall never rise again.  If it did, it would lose again.  So enough with that chicken, already.

scottindallas
scottindallas topcommenter

But Jim, you missed a MAJOR part of the story, and you failed to see your own role--the Media.  The MEDIA doesn't report, doesn't inform, but has become the stenographer between two fronts for the two parties.  The two parties are using different messages to push the same agenda.  This is the agenda that the "thinktanks" have foisted on us.  You interview these "experts" who don't have the integrity of lawyers, and you never disclose who's funding their bought and paid for perspective.   Do YOUR job, find the nuance, the balance, and demand the same of your colleagues.

ruddski
ruddski

So we're a one-party monocracy, but everything is the fault of republicsns so don't vote for them. Got it.

ruddski
ruddski

So you're accusing Jim of making war with his fellow white men, and ruining America?

holmantx
holmantx topcommenter

By definition, if you reside in a neighborhood that excludes the poor and vote to hem them up in other parts of town. . . you are guilty of active and overt discrimination.  But I would not reach for the racism club since that is not why you think and act as you do. 

And if I did, I should rightfully be labeled as a race-baiter of the fist order, since I am attempting to marginalize my opponent’s argument in an unrelated debate (such as the debt and deficit).

ruddski
ruddski

so if diversity comes to an old white man, and the old white man experiences measurable negative impact from that diversity, he has two choices - stay and endure, in silence, or leave,, just don't say why. Those are some if the rules for old, conservative white men. If you don't follow the rules imposed on you by the left, in America, government aparathiks and the democrat party (redundancy) will declare you as terrorist.

And if old white men get out of line, their parks and fishing holes will be shut diwn.

scottindallas
scottindallas topcommenter

@animas we need nuanced messages, news, and arguments.  There's a balance to be found. 

JimSX
JimSX topcommenter

@animas 

Those who have suffered misuse at the hands of the government -- the poor and minorities -- are grateful for any slow-down in the misuse. Those who have supped at the trough of government -- the upper middle class and rich -- are angry and ready to burn the house down if the trough slows down.

rkm200
rkm200

@animas

So what’s the punch line here? Your premise must be a joke or are you just talking out of your ass?

scottindallas
scottindallas topcommenter

@Lurch That's the majority of olds.  And, both sides are equally wrong.    I'm a libertarian/progressive neither side can articulate their arguments worth a damn.  Too many adore politicians.   Why should politics be a contentious subject, they're all shitty, why would you be so defensive of someone so sorry?

gabe48
gabe48

@killwhiteprivilege You're really lashing out lately.  I've decided to feed you, to calm the idiot-storm.  

Notice how almost everyone ignores you?  That is because everyone recognizes what you are; most likely a troll, or much less likely, a bigoted teabagger.  Nobody cares about your opinion.  Nobody cares about your baiting.  

I know it must be getting lonely rambling incoherently to an empty room, and that seems to be haunting you.

You are that lump of dog shit you described, and everyone is walking around you because you are vile.  Enjoy the food! 

scottindallas
scottindallas topcommenter

@holmantx holman, you've shrunk from the debate, but you know that higher top marginal rates and higher cap gains would encourage production domestically.   Furthermore, if you're gullible to fall for "low taxes" then you support MORE taxes, taxes on this, taxes on that.   Opposing taxes is a way to lower the tax burden to the middle and lower classes.   You're a fucking dupe on the issue, you run like a frightened girl from admitting what you've been forced to see.   Yet, you persist in your inane folly.  You're smarter than this, than to buy into some simpleton message.   Policy isn't simple, there's a balance to strike, there are few permanent fixes.  This complexity doesn't make it something we should quit, nor is it something we can ignore, but your simpleton message encourages both responses

bvckvs
bvckvs topcommenter

@holmantx The tea party isn't a grass roots movement.  It's just a subsidiary of the Republican party.  It was created by the Republican leadership, purchases all its materials from Republican vendors, and endorses only Republican candidates.

The only reason they gave it a name was so that folks who are ashamed to be Republicans can pretend that they're something else.

holmantx
holmantx topcommenter

the link is broken, so here is the article:

When thousands of Chicago property owners went on a tax strike, the mayor threatened to cut off their water.

Many historians depict the Great Depression as a turning point when bitter economic realities finally led the middle class to break from laissez-faire tradition and demand bigger government. This is not entirely untrue, but it's only part of what happened.

In its initial phase, the Depression also spawned a powerful movement for smaller government that included tax revolts. These revolts were not only more widespread but often more extreme than any sponsored by the tea party.

Depression-era taxpayers had perhaps even greater reason to be angry than their modern counterparts. Property values plummeted after 1929 but tax reassessments lagged. Overall, taxes nearly doubled to 21.1% of national income in 1932 from 11.6% in 1929, according to a 1940 Tax Policy Institute report.

Meanwhile, unemployment skyrocketed. Local property tax delinquency rose to a record (still standing) of 26.3% in 1933, from 10.1% in 1930. In many places, the tax system broke down and payment became almost voluntary. Throughout the country, Americans formed "taxpayers' leagues" to demand spending cuts, arguing that since they had tightened their belts, politicians should too. According to an article in the National Municipal Review, at least 3,000 such groups had emerged by 1933 compared to only 47 in 1927. Because of tax league pressure, 19 states and numerous localities brought property levies under control by capping mill rates or limiting overall property taxes to a percentage of assessed value.

In 1932, New York Times journalist Anne O'Hare McCormick noted that "the nearest thing to a political revolution in the country is the tax revolt. . . . Taxpayers are wrought up to the point of willingness to give up public services. 'We'll do without county agents,' they say. 'We'll give up the public health service.'" The head of the International City Managers Association bemoaned that, "There seems to be no game laws of any kind to protect public officers and the establishment we call government. Taxes have been assailed as economic waste and those who spend tax money have been pictured as wastrels."

While most tax leaguers emphasized conventional legal approaches, a few pressed more radical measures. The best known was the Association of Real Estate Taxpayers in Chicago, which led one of the largest tax strikes in American history. At its height in 1933, it had 30,000 paid members, a budget of $600,000, and a weekly radio show. The strikers so angered Mayor Anton Cermak in 1932 that he threatened to cut off their city water. During a special visit to Washington, D.C., Cermak implored Congress to send "money now or militia later." It did neither.

Condemned as "anarchists" and "public enemies," the strikers, as well as mainstream tax leaguers, faced a level of invective that matched any endured by tea partiers. Noting that the city had a 40% tax delinquency, the head of an organization of Chicago school principals charged "Forty percent citizenship is no less dangerous and perilous to the government of America today than it was in the days of Benedict Arnold."

By the middle of the 1930s, the tax revolt was largely over. Tax leaguers achieved property tax relief, mainly due to the imposition of new post-Prohibition "sin" taxes, mostly on alcohol. But the relief was only short term.

Moreover, tax leaguers often proved unable to respond to counterattacks and waffled when proposing specific areas to cut. Progressive "good government" reformers brilliantly found ways to channel lingering tax-revolt sentiment into relatively harmless proposals to make government more "efficient" rather than cut it down. New Deal administrators also contributed to the demise of the movement by denying aid to localities "hampered" by tax limitation laws, and by requiring any mortgagor to give priority to back taxes.

While the tea party and the Depression-era tax revolt show obvious parallels, several differences stand out. Tax delinquency since the onset of the recession has crept higher, but it is nowhere close to 1930s levels. Few tea partiers have contemplated tax strikes and, even if they did, the obstacles to such a strategy are now much greater. In the 1930s, for example, property owners paid taxes directly to the government. Today a homeowner agrees to pay the taxes he owes to the holder of his mortgage, who remits them to the government.

No one wrote a more fitting epitaph to the Depression-era tax revolt than the famed writer and editor H.L. Mencken, who was no friend of taxation. Writing in the American Mercury in late 1933, Mencken noticed a rapid shift in attitude from a period when the taxpayer "began to yell for relief; worse began to refuse his tax bills" causing "a sort of reign of terror for public office holders," to an era that upheld the doctrine that "every free born American deserves his whack at the public treasury." Politicians, he added "believe in God again, and if not God, then at least in the New Deal. It has delivered them."

Mr. Beito, a professor of history at the University of Alabama and a fellow at the Independent Institute, is the author of "Taxpayers in Revolt: Tax Resistance during the Great Depression" (University of North Carolina, 1989).

Catbird
Catbird

@ruddski No. Obama (a Democrat) has been wildly successful in advancing the the Corporate New World Order by building on the Bush (a Republican) Patriot Act with the NDAA which allows the president to order the execution of anyone he desires without due process. He has also militarized the Bush Era Department of Homeland Security and is equipping them to wage war on America's civilian population.

And then there is his gun running to the Drug Cartels in Mexico in hopes of using any murders committed using the weapons to gin up political anger against the 2nd Amendment so that they could disarm the American civilian population as well as his gun running to al Queda through Benghazi and his treason n ordering the stand down which might have saved the live of Ambassador Stevens and would certainly have saved the lives of Woods and Doherty.  

Point is that no matter who has the office, its not our government, it belongs to the corporations who bought and paid for it.

ruddski
ruddski

Reference to debt or deficit is coded racism.

scottindallas
scottindallas topcommenter

@ruddski Diversity of what?  need, wealth, or race?  It seems you  were referring to minority "criminals"    Euphemisms aren't a dodge of racism.

animas
animas

The observation is clearly stated and only requires a rudimentary degree of education or literacy to comprehend- which obviously excludes you.  (If you persist in having paranoid hallucinations involving rectal speech--BTW --you should really consult a mental health professional or join a detox program).

scottindallas
scottindallas topcommenter

@holmantx The problem with your long narrative is that there weren't high taxes at that time.   the prohibition of Alcohol went through with a tax on the alcohol sales coupled with a cut in upper income taxes.   The biggest problem with this argument is that it conflates federal taxation with property taxes, and county duties.  The "argument" or observation presented is pointless, a strawman and conflates various entities as a single whole.  Man, you have a weakness for flattery.  You should know that about yourself Holman.   Probably keeps you stuck in group think

mavdog
mavdog topcommenter

@holmantx 

except for the fact personal income tax as a % of GDP is currently at one of its lowest levels in the last 50 years...

juanmayeaux
juanmayeaux

@Catbird @ruddski Got it, we live in a monocracy, but vote against Republican incumbents Your solution is "NUTS", but both parties are to blame for the mess of debt and a printing press that is spending trillions of funny money. We do have another choice and that is a Libertarian like Ron Paul. who is working within the two party system. You sound like a Libertarian to me and we are not Democrats! 

ruddski
ruddski

Whoops, more coded racism, we know what you meant.

holmantx
holmantx topcommenter

@ruddski

sure makes life a lot simpler.

weirdozmedia
weirdozmedia

@animas @rkm200 It seems to me under the Bush admin. questioning the govt was "unpatriotic".  Now anyone who trusts the govt is a commie. Is that about right?

animas
animas

"So what is the punch line here?"--Your original question -- plus your belated analysis  20 hours later that I have made a "simplistic statement" (which took YOU 20 hours to evaluate)  ,  simply confirms  your  ineptitude  and confusion.  The rest of your latest entry is a combination of the incomphrehensible with the inaccurate.  BTW- I AM having a great day (and at your expense it seems).

rkm200
rkm200

@animas

@rkm200

Your last post does little if anything to support your original broad, simplistic statement. Further, your need to personally insult someone who questions your position only undermines your fragile creditability on this subject or any other. If you can’t stand the heat…

And you go have any kind of day you desire, big boy.

animas
animas

@rkm200 @animas  "To suggest that there are two (sic ?)different camps of true(sic?) regard for government" is exactly what the electorate -which identifies itself as" liberal", "conservative", "antigovt." or "independent "-does.

"the worst kind of divisionist culture" is a direct result--which is the whole POINT of the article.(Did you think that the country is unified in it's "regard for govt" or is reasonable about anyone else's point of view on the subject?)

 Instead of being a jackass, you might wish to dig deeper into the backround of the typical self described liberal, conservative, independent ,etc.to find the irony of the philoosphy of those who unquestionably support or dislike govt policies .

(Incidentally, I will have whatever day I feel like)

rkm200
rkm200

@animas

You present a theory that the filter in which we see government is determined in some odd way by our personal experience with said entity. If you’re content in publishing silly, unproven sweeping generalizations like this one, then be prepared to back your statement up with some thread on facts or relevant statistics, instead of just trying to “kill the messenger” via insults and child-like barbs. Most thinking people are fully aware of the problem with our government, money. To suggest that there are two different camps of true regard for government is to play right into the worst kind of the divisionist culture.

You have a nice day, sir.

scottindallas
scottindallas topcommenter

@holmantx @animas @mavdog Income tax would be better for small businesses.  Property taxes don't abate in a down year.  Income taxes seem more fair.  

scottindallas
scottindallas topcommenter

@holmantx @mavdog The owner's taxes are paid by the lessees, don't be stupid.  If you know  anything about accounting, this can be put on either party.

mavdog
mavdog topcommenter

@holmantx 

business property tax is an assessed tax on the value of the leasehold and inventory. it is not the same as a commercial property tax which is asessed on the value of the real estate. they are different, apparently you don't grasp the difference.

commercial property values are under assessed by the CADs. the requirement to report the data on sales will help the CAD to get correct valuation of these properties on the tax rolls. sorry, I can't make this any simpler so you can understand it.

clearly the reality of who pays, not who is responsible, for the commercial taxes went right over you head.

uh, the structure of a lease affects the NOI, which affects the cap rate, which determines the end value.

value=price in the venacular. stop being such an ass, it will help your blood pressure,.

holmantx
holmantx topcommenter

@mavdog How do you operate commercial property without BPP?  You can't.  Is a vacant 20 story office tower worth the same as an identical, fully occupied tower?  Of course not.  

Commercial real property and Business Personal Property owners pay more in PROPERTY TAXES than RESIDENTIAL PROPERTY owners and you now know it.  And since you know it but demand to mislead, you are a liar.

And, ALL commercial property owners pay a property tax unless they are exempt.  It is not the responsibility of the lessee to pay the real property tax.  That falls only to the fee owner of record.  So yer wrong on that too.

That you are confused as to the two principles of ownership of real property (Substitution and Anticipation) is irrelevant.  Income-producing properties are worth only so much as the are able to generate in net operating income (the Principle of Anticipation).  Typically expressed as a multiple ratio.  Whether the rent is net or gross the property owner pays the tax.  Moron.  Again, you obfuscate because you know you are wrong.

And to top it off, you step on your crank when you cleanly miss the old bromide - Price does not equal Value.

Price is a fact.  Value is an opinion.

mavdog
mavdog topcommenter

@holmantx 

wow, are you serious?

first, "business property" tax is not the same tax as commercial property tax. the fact you conflate the 2 says a ton about your understanding of property taxes.

"there being 4 times as many residential parcels." holy cow, what a revelation! guess what? the average commercial lot size is several acres, the average residential lot is about 1/3 acre.

also, the average FAR of a residential lot is much less than a commercial lot. the average home in DFW sells for around $135/SF, the average commercial building sells for around $200/SF.

the vast majority of commercial property owners don't pay the property tax, the occupier (tenant) does. while there are gross leases in some industrial buildings, most have migrated to net leases. office and retail developments uses net leases.

the point you attempt to make that "sales values" are not the same as "sales prices" is at best inane, and at worst asinine.

holmantx
holmantx topcommenter

@mavdog @animas @holmantx 

No what?

And business property owners pay more property tax than residential property owners in Dallas County despite there being 4 times as many residential parcels.

You don't know what you are talking about.

and you mean sales PRICES, not sales values.  they aren't the same thing.

mavdog
mavdog topcommenter

@animas @mavdog @holmantx 

no. the property tax situation however needs to be restructured, with mandatory reporting of sales values. texas has a situation where residential provides a disportionate amount of revenue vs commercial, and higher value residential underpays due to lower appraised values relative to market.

holmantx
holmantx topcommenter

@animas @mavdog @holmantx 

offset or replace?  Most states that have an income tax do not have high property taxes.  However, one is income-based the other is asset-based.  If you switched to an income tax, Texas would become Yuppie retirement heaven.

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