Embracing Our Dumbness: Bills Before Legislature Would Turn Back the Clock on Education Standards

Categories: Schutze

SHZ_GetOffMyLawn_TitleImageV2.jpg
So in the end will all of the public school principals and teachers with the worst test scores for minority and poor kids wind up in a big political wet kiss with the Tea Party? Wait, am I naive? Have they always been smoochers?

While we spend our time worrying about job security for public school principals in Dallas, the Legislature is about to yank the rug from under poor and working-class kids all over Texas. A bill voted out of the House Public Education Committee last week and paired with a similar bill in the Senate will gut rigorous testing tied to grade advancement and graduation. Its author, Representative Jimmie Don Aycock, a Killeen Republican, is peddling this whole Tea Party line about college prep being a waste of money for most Texas kids.

The Texas Association of Business and 16 major corporations and chambers of commerce are calling Aycock's HB 5 a truly bad idea for Texas: "Lowering graduation requirements would send the wrong message to our students, create fewer pathways to additional education and threaten Texas competitively," the TAB said in an open letter to the Senate five days ago.

jimmie don aycock.jpg
State Representative Jimmie Don Aycock
Aycock is the most visible spokesman at the moment in our TP-dominated Legislature for the idea that most kids would do just fine with some job training instead of all that reading, writing and 'rithmetic that they cain't hardly get no-how anyhow. That old ghost has been a Texas rural line of thinking since forever: It's exactly what Ross Perot and Tom Luce had to fight in the early '80s when they first introduced Texas to the notion that literacy might be even more important than football. Now the hard bigotry of no expectations is back to haunt us, and it seems to be making common cause with the worn-out pissed-off teachers and principals of the world and their spokespersons.

The point the corporate community makes is that reading, writing and math are the only job training that's worth anything today. Kids who have not mastered those skills better be good with a shovel. (I think those jobs are taken, actually, but let's not go there right now.)

Dallas Morning News editorial columnist Bill McKenzie did a Q&A a few days ago with Texas Higher Education Commissioner Raymund A. Paredes, who said: "Texas is 48th in SAT Reading and Writing scores, 38th in Math scores and 33rd in ACT scores. ACT data show only 25 percent of Texas high school graduates are college ready across the board. Among the 10 largest states we are eighth in college participation. That doesn't sound like too much emphasis on getting kids ready for college."

Yeah. All of the bitching about teaching to the test might have more credibility if the complaints were about specific tests rather than the whole idea of testing. In fact, some test critics, like Texans Advocating for Meaningful Student Assessment (TAMSA) are saying the worst thing about state tests is their egregious tendency to over-report achievement when compared with results for the same students on nationally normed tests like the Iowa Test of Basic Skills.

So, sure, if we're going to ditch the bad tests, let's put that much more emphasis on nationally normed tests like the ITBS and the SAT that aren't written by Gomer legislators. But that's not where Aycock is headed and, judging by some of the comments here (should we judge by those?), it's not at all what's driving the fury among DISD staff at underperforming schools. Instead we get this whole paranoid parallel universe in which testing itself is a CIA/Illuminati conspiracy to enrich Sandy Kress, an Akin-Gump lawyer, former Dallas school board member and former White House adviser who is now on the faculty of the George W. Bush Institute.

A plot to enrich a guy named Sandy Kress? Hmm. There's something in there I could almost like. OK, let's say it's true. That would still leave us with this basic problem: Life is a test. L-I-F-E. Life. It's a T-E-S-T. Test. Doing good on tests is ... well, it's just really good. Doing bad on tests is quite bad. A bad thing. If testing is really a conspiracy to benefit Sandy Kress, then Sandy Kress must be God, in which case we better do what he says.

The world is full of people right now who want to stop pushing poor kids to achieve. They don't want the competition for their own kids. Some of them want to take America back to 1950 when white people didn't have to be all that smart in order to be smart. But, look, remember what I said about the smooch. Looming just as large on this horizon is the line I heard loud and clear at Madison High School last week, that high-stakes testing and tough accountability for teachers and principals are a white plot to screw black people out of their jobs.

What was that saying? Success has many fathers, but failure is an orphan? That's bullshit. Judging by what's going on in Dallas and Texas right now, I'd say success is a wallflower and failure is more like an orgy.


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56 comments
kuhntheman
kuhntheman

Yes, it was the moms who finally brought Kress and Pearson to their knees. They need to finish the job and get rid of the rest of it.

In the meantime, maybe Schutze will pay attention to a real education reformers, not the charlatans of Dallas:

http://edgator.com/?p=769

stacey6280
stacey6280

The condescending tone in this article is a common tactic used to try to discredit an opposing point of view without a good argument. I'm sure parents of CTE students and those who have chosen vocational pathways in their careers take issue with being compared to ditch diggers. You might need to be careful when choosing a mechanic, plumber, photographer, hairdresser, etc.. They might not give you the best service since you feel that they have "embraced dumbness". Meanwhile they will be plugging their hard earned dollars right into our economy since they won't be loaded down with college debt with no job in sight. They might even plug those dollars into college tuition when they feel ready to work on a different (but not necessarilty better) life goal. This article is insulting to parents whose families are living through this testing mess. Saying "life is a test, it's important to do well" is not a good argument for accepting the test is a valid measurement of achievement without question, and we should all be okay with spending a half billion dollars on a system that's never been proven to work. And to imply that Pearson and Sandy Kress aren't doing everything they possibly can to fight for their business in Austin when that much money is at stake would be naive. I wonder if the author has actually seen a TAMSA presentation or talked to them, because they do have very specific complaints about specific tests, and Representative Aycock would likely "ditch the bad tests"...all of them.... if he thought he could get the entire legislature to agree to it. He has shown exemplary leadership in getting it down to something that resembles rational. Bottom line is that parents don't agree with you on this, and we are uniting to put an end to this absurd over-emphasis on standardized testing. We have not lowered any expectations for our own children, and will not allow desparaging characterization of what we are trying to accomplish. Our families are living with realities of high stakes testing and we can see the damage being done. I invite the author to spend some time with us to get a first hand view. Better yet, take the high school EOC's. STAAR begins next week.

dmiller19
dmiller19

"In fact, some test critics, like Texans Advocating for Meaningful Student Assessment (TAMSA) are saying the worst thing about state tests is their egregious tendency to over-report achievement when compared with results for the same students on nationally normed tests like the Iowa Test of Basic Skills."  I think you missed TAMSA's point.  Look at the lack of information provided by STAAR as compared to other tests that can actually be used to catch kids up on what they aren't understanding, and results come back quickly, soon enough to help a kid out in the same school year the tests were administered.   

dmiller19
dmiller19

There are so many standardized tests that the supposedly STAAR "End of Course" exams start on April 1.  Practice testing starts in March.  So much for "end" of course exams. 

dmiller19
dmiller19

Not mentioned in this column is that HB 5 passed the Texas House with only two Members voting against it. 

dmiller19
dmiller19

Did you know results from Spring 2012 STAAR tests came back in 2013?  They take 9 months to grade and then come back with no information for parents to help kids with their weaknesses. 

dmiller19
dmiller19

Pearson hires test graders with degrees in any field off Craigslist for $12 an hour.  From 2000-2015, Texas will have paid Pearson over $1.1 billion.  TAB does not speak for every Chamber of Commerce (Plano is not renewing their membership) and only recently admitted Pearson is a member.  Everyone believes in accountability, but this system has gone too far and will result in more dropouts as it is very difficult to catch up from a bad 9th grade year.  Why attack moms against drunk testing?  Life is in no way a series of fill-in-the-bubble standardized tests. 

dmiller19
dmiller19

No other state requires anywhere near 15 high stakes tests to graduate.  Colleges don't care about STAAR. Thank goodness HB5 allows AP tests to replace STAAR tests.  Why double test those kids, when they have shown mastery and can earn college credit with an AP test. 

dmiller19
dmiller19

On the first day of this legislative session, Speaker Joe Straus (no tea partier) said on the House floor, "There should be no sacred cows when it comes to our children-including our accountability system. For more than a decade, this state has used an increasingly rigorous series of standardized tests to measure academic excellence. But by now every Member of this House has heard from constituents at the grocery store or the Little League fields about the burdens of an increasingly cumbersome testing system in our schools. Teachers and parents worry that we have sacrificied classroom inspiration for rote memorization. The goal of education is not to teach children how to pass a test, but to prepare them for life. The goal of every teacher is to develop in students a lifelong love of learning and we need to get back to that goal in the classroom. To parents and educators concernec about excessive testing-the Texas House has heard you." 

dmiller19
dmiller19

I am really disappointed in this column.  It is lazy.  Jimmie Don Aycock was elected in 2006, before the tea party movement.  The tea partiers are generally not aligned with Texas House Speaker and therefore aren't appointed chair of committees, like Chairman Aycock was appointed chair of the Texas House Public Education Committee.  I am a parent of a tenth grader and I am living this current testing system that now applies to 9th and 10th graders.  Parents aren't standing for up to 45 days of testing and test prep per school year.  

klreeves
klreeves

Almost every comment here is filled with anecdote and inaccuracies. Thx for the post

EastDallasDad
EastDallasDad

Why can't we allow students and parents to choose between a college prep curriculum and a career prep curriculum? 

PrestonHoller
PrestonHoller

Life is a "test" therefore taking a bunch of tests is great?

A person's success in the "test" of life is much more contingent upon their ability to develop relationships with other, make good ol' stick-to-it-ness, setting and achieving reasonable goals, and a basic curiosity.  No matter how much college education you cram down someone's throat, if you lack many or all of these characteristics, you are going to fail life's "test".  Similarly, if you possess most or all of them, you are going to pass life's "test" regardless of your level of formal education.

Burdening kids with dozens of new state mandated standardized testing might eventually get a small amount of the bottom feeders to squeak out an SAT that is barely able to get them to be accepted probationally at Southernmost Northwestern State College of the Western Ozarks (or some other quack college).  But it is not going to a damn bit of good for preparing a kid for the "test" of life... other than to maybe show to him that just because an idiotic liberal editorialist is given space in the Dallas Observer, that does not make him an expert in education.

BTW, Jim:  If taking tests is such great preparation for life's "test", when was the last time you took an SAT just to keep your life's skills honed?


Pweesey
Pweesey

overheard on Jim's lawn:  ExxonMobil is an evil fracking company, except when they do something I like.  Then they are a major corporation with a good idea. When it comes to their actual expertise, I don't trust them.  But when it comes to education, they are an authority whose opinion is worth citing.  Except when they are faking climate research.  Then they are evil again.    

kduble
kduble

"Some of them want to take America back to 1950 when white people didn't have to be all that smart in order to be smart."

 I'm not sure what to make of this statement. Adults in the 1950s were conversant in opera, theater, classical music, books, had no problems applying mathematics, and they certainly had no problem finding the U.S. on a world map, or most other countries for that matter.

Despite the laudable social progress we've made, middle class whites certainly seemed a lot better educated then than they appear to be now.

Tom434
Tom434

Not sure how this fits in, but while driving today the news was that a bill was being debated today in the House to reduce the number of year end exams a student must  pass in core courses.   

kressisSatan
kressisSatan

Kress took all those millions he's made forcing tests on public school children in Texas and put his children in  elite, private schools that ADVERTISE they don't waste time on the STAARS. 

If testing is such a holy experience, how can his own kids miss out? Kress' response was that his own child was interested in learning Greek, offered only at the private school where he enrolled. Right, hahahaha.

So life is a multiple choice test, poorly written, with cut rates to make politicians happy and Texas is returning to the Dark Ages by refusing to participate with 15 different tests that will have the actual effect of retaining most low income students in high school...forever. The students who could have gone on happily to jobs and community colleges will sit in high school trying to pass a test over Algebra II and Physics.

So Jim wants us to believe this is necessary instead of a way of lining Kress' pockets.

Ok-Jimbo- we will give you all 15 if you agree failing results in the termination of your job. If you really believe life is dependent on these sorry tests, then we'll penalize you the same way students in public schools will be penalized--no high school diploma and no job.

Want to risk your job on taking these tests and passing them?

No, didn't think so.

roo_ster
roo_ster

Having attended a Texas state university, I can tell you 75%-80% of the students had no business being there.  Some because they are not so bright.  (Hooray top 10% of Suck Azz High School!  Your remedial classes are this way...) Some because they are temperamentally unsuited (for whatever reason) for academics and the jobs a college education might train them to do. 

IMO, saddling mediocre students with a mountain of debt to get a degree in mass communication ought to be a flogging offense. 


FTR, there is nothing wrong with testing if it is a well-designed test that covers actual competencies.  The ITBS has been such a critter.  Texas would be smart if it just adopted the ITBS and called it a day.  Problem is, policritters hate it because it can not be manipulated to show an artificial closing of "The Gap."  The usual testing dance is like this:

1. Get new test.

2.  Test shows "The Gap" of some percentile/score difference and (more importantly) a difference of roughly one standard deviation.

3. Frantic, useless rushing about and teaching of test-taking strategies by teachers and not-so-useless action by test-makers who shade the difficulty of the test, harder or easier, to reduce appearance of "the Gap" score-wise, while still retaining a one standard deviation gap.

4. Policritter takes credit for reducing "The Gap." (Which really wasn't reduced, as it is still one standard deviation, but the percentile/number scores show a narrowing, so why not celebrate?)

5. After next election, "The Gap" no longer narrows.

6. Calls for a New Test, because the Old Test no longer tells us what we want to hear.

7. Go to Step #1.




mcdallas
mcdallas

Maybe a balance could work here?  Something like: give students opportunities to learn skilled trades while in school, AFTER they have proven basic skill level on the three "R's"...

scottindallas
scottindallas topcommenter

how about let's ditch all the test and hire teachers with the money we don't spend in purchasing, administering, and grading these tests.  Let's do a trial where we do it to a % of schools.  Life is a test Jim, but it's certainly not a multiple choice, fill in the bubble test--unless you put much more stock in filling out insurance and other forms than one should.

everlastingphelps
everlastingphelps topcommenter

I read it twice and I still don't know what the hell you were trying to say.  Might want to give this one another pass. I'm not making it up this stream of consciousness without a life vest.

northdallasknowitall
northdallasknowitall

Schutze doesn't have a clue. He doesn't visit our schools, but his infatuation with the traveling road show of SMU flakes and PAC Buy a School Board Member is way old. He can see through the Bridge folks until they appear in the same form over at SMU where all of a sudden they have credibility.

PAC members just bought another round of freaks for board members. Nancy Bingham? Come on! Anyone in Pleasant Grove is better. My dog Missy is better. Lew Blackburn? This is the best they can buy?

Eric Cowan sleeps through meetings, but Domingo's candidate is suspect? Wow. 


klreeves
klreeves

(Minus those who agree with you, of course.)

westdallaschickie
westdallaschickie

@EastDallasDad Because liberal Jim doesn't trust parents and students. He trusts Austin. He trusts Sandy Kress. He trusts Pearson. But he doesn't trust students or parents and he certainly doesn't trust teachers.

I believe I remember Jim saying he went to a private high school. They weren't tested to death like this.

Strange how we now believe our teachers are so rotten that Pearson is a better judge of whether students have learned than their own teachers.

Of course, we only believe poor folks need Pearson shoved up their zzes, not the rich folk whose children don't have this constant irritation.

JimSX
JimSX topcommenter

@PrestonHoller 

Are the tests unneeded, in your view, because Texas kids are doing so well on academic achievement? 

JimSX
JimSX topcommenter

@kduble

Not sure about that. In 1940 more than half of the U.S. adult population had an eighth grade education or less. The big gains were in the 1960s, but mainly for black people, from a median of 10.5 to 12.2 years of education  for black males. By the 1990s high school completion was about 70 percent for black people, 80 percent for whites. I'm having trouble believing people were better educated back when half of them never finished high school. http://nces.ed.gov/naal/lit_history.asp  But they did seem that way in the movies. 

UTakeThem
UTakeThem

@kduble Isn't that strange how students from public schools managed to build the longest period of sustained prosperity in this nation without being constantly used as data points for Pearson?

Jim thinks this is so important, we need to give him an Algebra II and Physics end of course exams and tell him we expect him to pass since all Americans must use these two advanced subjecst every day according to Kress and Schutze. Without a test in Algebra II keeping most kids from graduating from high school, our nation is at risk according to Jim.

Schutze is able to hold these beliefs despite any research showing any of this is true and plenty of research indicating the last rounds of high school testing accomplished nothing but boredom and massive cheating.

But, we bet Schutze is going to show us how he uses Algebra II on a daily basis since not mastering it means kids should not graduate from high school. Why, we haven't figured out any more than we've figured out where this idea of constant testing made anyone any smarter.

baker24
baker24

@mcdallas I don't see much discussion of the country's need for well-trained, skilled tradespeople. When I was in high school - when the earth was cooling - there was a college prep track and a vocational track. My HS civics teacher was wonderful: her college prep kids scored in the 98th percentile on a national test. The interesting thing is, her vocational students scored in the 95th percentile on the same exam. As far as the value of good vocational training is concerned, when I lived in The Colony, a guy moved into a rental house across the street from mine. He was a plumber starting out. The last I heard, he owned an office building on Main St. and a two-story house on the water on Lake Lewisville.....

kduble
kduble

@scottindallas  But without tests, how would you know the teachers you hired are performing?

klreeves
klreeves

@northdallasknowitall Schutze knows what he's talking about here. And I've visited your schools, too.

I'm listening to an audiobook now that talks about all the mistakes that take down major decisions.... What happened, in this case, was narrowcasting. Instead of fixing the overall problems of the Texas accountability system, we narrowly cast the problem and just cut the number of tests and dumbed down the requirements for CTE. 

That doesn't improve schools. That doesn't help teachers. That doesn't solve problems. 

As for the bridge... well... Schutze loves him some bridge....



dmiller19
dmiller19

@westdallaschickie @EastDallasDad Jim has written about his son attending DISD, but I seriously doubt if his kid were part of this new 15 standardized tests to graduate that his tone and silly accusations of CIA paranoia would have occurred.  It just doesn't create confidence in the system when last session's Texas House Public Ed Committee chair enters through the revolving door as a paid lobbyist for Pearson, the primary testing vendor.  That doesn't pass the smell test!  If a kid fails the tests, then the school must pay for remediation tests that summer (another unfunded mandate).  The deal with Pearson is too sweet. 

northdallasknowitall
northdallasknowitall

@westdallaschickie @EastDallasDad Yes, we are all aware of SAT prep. What you don't understand, Schutze, is that no college cares about TAKS scores and our kids were doing TAKS prep rather than learning content. The state tests are miserable excuses for anything. They only serve to line Kress's pockets and his kids aren't punished by them.

Middle class parents have a right to use the public schools and we shouldn't have 45 days a year out of 180 spent on testing. Add the pep assemblies, snow, teacher illness, etc and not much is left for the content.

The smartest kids are treated to exactly the same tests as those who are relatively new to this country and those in special education. We will continue to do everything we can to safeguard the education of our kids and these state tests serve no purpose.

Your SAT prep classes gave you an advantage. Constant teaching to the state tests puts our kids at a disadvantage compared to those able to attend private school.

You have not been bored to death by constant test prep for a decade or you would see that the original purpose of making sure minority and poor kids were not isolated and ignored is long gone. Now it is just testing for the sake of testing and taking scarce state money and handing it over to Pearson and Kress.

Why should I be forced to subsidize Kress who then puts his kids in private school where they are not forced to endure this crap?

JimSX
JimSX topcommenter

@westdallaschickie @EastDallasDad 

We had a zillion practice run-throughs on the SAT plus a seminar by a guy who was on the SAT committee who gave us broad hints what novel the English achievement test would be based on,which turned out to be right. You think private schools leave this shit to chance?

PrestonHoller
PrestonHoller

@JimSX @PrestonHollerOnce again, you try to defend a dumbass statement by changing the goal posts.  Your statement was that life is a test; therefore, more standardized tests are great because it teaches kids how to pass tests.  Now you try to avoid the stupidity of your statement by asking if supposedly lack of academic achieve justifies more standardized tests.

If you want to move the goal posts, I’ll still play.  You’ve got to stop buying into the Liberal claptrap that the solution to EVERY freakin’ problem on earth can be best rectified by ushering in a battery of bureaucrats with a bunch of fancy degrees citing some new test conducted that supposedly justifies paying some corporation a bunch of public funds to correct.

Simply put, the vast majority of academic underachievement in the DISD is due to the fact that a large majority of the kids don’t give a flip about academic achievement.  If they cared about it, they’d excel at it.  They do care a ton about athletic achievement, music, dancing, TV, Xbox, web surfing, etc.  And they are awesome at those “endeavors.”

No matter how many overpriced brand spanking new standardized tests, TFA’ers, or education reform funding you throw at academic underachievement, it isn’t going to change until the kids start caring about education.  And they aren’t going to start caring about it until their parents collectively care about it. 

And while every parent claims they care about education, they don’t really care about it until they start turning off the TV at night, actively monitor their kids, make sure the kids get to sleep on time, and (most importantly) stop them from acting up in class. 

Throw as much money and standardized tests as you want at the problem, it is going to remain until the parents of these underachieving kids have a huge culture shift.

Once that happens, I am confident you will see all these supposedly ineffective teachers making HUGE strides in academic achievement.  Most are great teachers who are forced to do their best against a Sisyphean bolder of parent indifference.

westdallaschickie
westdallaschickie

@JimSX @PrestonHoller We hold high school students in high school at twice the rate we used to keep them coraled.

That is why SAT and ACT scores don't climb. We used to test only the top quarter of the class.

Of course, facts don't seem to sway you.

How did your kid ever graduate without taking 15 end of course exams? His growth was probably stunted without them, or have you even lowered yourself to talk to parents and students about this?

Our reformers about town don't talk or have anything to do with poor parents or their kids. They spend all their time in meetings or putting on productions at SMU where these folks don't go. Strange how poor folks and their kids and teachers can't be trusted, but rich folks and their kids don't need all these tests.

Strange, isn't it?

kduble
kduble

@JimSX @kduble  Good point, but I suspect an 8th grade education then was the equivalent of a community college degree today. My dad and his older brother both dropped out of high school after Pearl Harbor. My dad didn't get his GED, or whatever they called it back then, until many years later. He eventually returned to school, however, getting an economics degree and eventually an MBA. As for my uncle, he never spent a day in college. He went on to work for Bell Labs, though, has a patent, quit to go into business for himself, and is now a millionaire several times over. I suspect your parents might have had similar experiences. It wasn't just the movies, Jim.

roo_ster
roo_ster

@JimSX @kduble Primary and secondary schooling has been dumbed down these last few decades.  My great granddad completed 8th grade, but ended up on the local school board and ran a small business.  After getting my bibliophilic hands on his books a few years back (to include a couple grade-school grammar & math texts), I don't doubt the man was better educated than most high school graduates today.  Those texts were on par with the advanced English courses my senior year in high school.

westdallaschickie
westdallaschickie

@kduble @scottindallas How did we allow millions of teachers to teach and trust them before Kress convinced everyone that teachers couldn't be trusted, but Pearson greasing his palms was a trustworthy event?

Why do you trust a testing company whose tests in the past didn't correlate to the gold standard ITBS, but you don't trust teachers?

scottindallas
scottindallas topcommenter

@kduble @scottindallas tests are one narrow way to measure performance.  But, it is a narrow metric.  Why are we putting so much stake in a metric that interferes with the ability of the teachers to teach, steals class time and is an abstraction from the process? 

dmiller19
dmiller19

@northdallasknowitall @westdallaschickie @EastDallasDad   The STAAR tests must be administered by an accredited teacher in small groups, so teachers get pulled out of other grades to give the tests.  Then subs must be hired (unfunded mandate) to cover the grades not testing so those days are blow offs for the other grades.  Or other grades in high school don't report to school until half the day is gone.  So even if a kid is in a non testing year or subject, the testing still wastes their school days. 

soccermoms
soccermoms

@PrestonHoller @JimSX Jim doesn't understand the middle class is fed up with being assaulted with these tests in an attempt to micromanage the poor.

Jim doesn't understand that every public school kid in Texas gets punished because of some delusion that poor kids will turn into upper class students if they are just tested with the money spilling into Sandy Kress' s pockets.

It's the same mistake Miles is making. In an attempt to manage poor instruction by some teachers, his micromanaging control is driving the talent straight out of the door.

The middle class won't fit into the existing private schools and don't have the dough to get there, but that is the only refuge against punishing the poor by testing them constantly.

Soccer moms drove the attack against the testing establishment and the Texas legislators know better than vote against their wishes because they will pull them from office.

TheCredibleHulk
TheCredibleHulk topcommenter

@roo_ster @TheCredibleHulk @scottindallas @kduble @JimSX 

I'd agree with you there.

I'd go so far as to say that kids probably don't even need to "learn" to use a computer, they are naturally curious learners and seem to be pretty intuitive about learning those particular types of skills.

If anything, they need the core subjects taught early and thoroughly so that they can put what they are consuming on the WorldWildWeb into proper perspective.

roo_ster
roo_ster

@TheCredibleHulk @scottindallas @kduble @JimSX There is no need for a student to doink around with a computer until well after they have mastered basic English and mathematics.  Most computer courses taught in schools are worthless as tits on a boar hog, anyway.  "Resources" are just a call for a hardware fix of a software problem, anyways.

TheCredibleHulk
TheCredibleHulk topcommenter

@scottindallas @kduble @JimSX 

We need both - kids need to grow up literate and computer savvy in order to compete in a society where information is currency and access is the ability to utilize it.

scottindallas
scottindallas topcommenter

@kduble @JimSX It's nonsense to compare.  Their computer literacy was ZERO.  It's different.  They focused on core competencies, which is still a good idea in my book.  Too much we seem to think we need "resources" in the classroom.  That's BS.  We need decent student teacher ratios, we don't need computers, projectors, or all the other expensive fireworks.  unless you're talking Biology and Chemistry, where Bunsen burners and microscopes make for a decent lab. 

baker24
baker24

@mcdallas @baker24 Considering the vast numbers of new houses and apartments that have been built in the last 25-30 years, I suspect people who go into those domestic service trades you mentioned will be doing quite well indeed. Pat will have a great deal of solid middle class company keeping those buildings in livable condition. Just sayin'.....

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