Despite Bomb Threats, Metal Detectors are too Urban for Highland Park High

Categories: Schutze

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UPDATE: HPISD sent a letter in response to this post, and because it's too long to publish in our comments, we've added to the end.

I have a column coming out in next week's paper about the bomb and gun threats at Highland Park High School. It was inspired by (ripped off from) a story in The Huffington Post last week by Park Cities freelance writer Pamela Kripke, who is also the mother of a HPHS student.

It's a pretty amazing piece, which I can say with some confidence now having followed behind her and found all of her reporting solid. She says that University Park Police Chief Gary Adams told her the only way he could guarantee the safety of students at the high school would be with the installation of metal detectors.

She says Adams also told her that he had proposed metal detectors to the school district, even offering to find some loaners for them until they could buy their own, but that the school had turned down the idea.

You know why. Too ghetto.

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Well, they say metal detectors are too "urban." A school district spokesperson told me requiring park cities students to go through metal detectors had a "cultural element" and a "psychological part" that they couldn't allow.

They've had seven explicit written bomb threats since January by my count, two incidents of live ammo found in the school or on the person of a student, more text message threats than they can count, and the FBI has been unable so far to link any of it to anybody.

After Crime Stoppers offered a reward, the organization received a note in the mail warning them that the threats are "not a hoax" and that the danger is "building."

But they don't need metal detectors. Helen Williams, director of communications for the district, told me, "When you've got a situation in an urban district where you're dealing with gangs and things that come with that, it probably is a more major consideration."

But not in the Park Cities. Williams told me Kripke had been what she called "quite verbal" and that the metal detectors were "kind of her one-woman crusade to tell you the truth."

Since Kripke's Huff Post piece came out, Chief Adams has been smartly boxed about the ears, I'm sure. Williams told me Adams had not said what Kripke quoted him saying, which would make Kripke a liar and a fabricator of fact. When I spoke with Adams, he did his yeoman best to play down any conflict with the school district, insisting he had not issued any edicts and that the district had not defied any warnings from him.

But Adams is obviously a deep-down honest guy (whom I am probably getting fired), and in response to my questions he confirmed the gist of what Kripke had reported: "She asked me about metal detectors and if I thought they needed them. I said at this point in time after we found .22 bullets, I thought we did."

Her piece is a compelling combination of solid reporting and the cry of a mother's terrified heart. Here's an excerpt:

I call the Chief of Police. He assures me that within two days, metal detectors would be installed on campus. He sounds relieved. Without them, he says he can't know if a weapon is in the school. He "cannot guarantee the safety of anyone in the building."

Two days later, when detectors are not installed, I call him to find out where they are. He tells me that he provided school administrators with detailed information about how to purchase them. "I even tried to borrow them, meantime, from other districts, the airport," says Chief Gary Adams ...

"We should have them. If it's going overboard, we should go overboard." Chief Adams has worked as a police officer for more than 35 years, and as Chief, here and elsewhere, for 20.

UPDATE:This letter, sent by email last Thursday from the Highland Park Independent School District, reflects the HPISD position:

Dear Jim,

I thought I'd send you some additional information for your story. Here is the link to the Crime Stoppers announcement, which also includes some safety updates from Chief Adams and Dr. Orr:

http://archive.constantcontact.com/fs142/1102070697430/archive/1112880814723.html

I also am including some information from another recent message that discusses the debate over permanently installing walk-through metal detectors on campus(es), along with other related topics. Just to clarify, we are looking at all our options and have not ruled out walk-through metal detectors. As we discussed on the phone, it would be a major change and expense for the district, and we would need to look at how many metal detectors would be needed, whether they should be installed on all campuses, and how to manage the logistics of screening the thousands of students, staff members and community members who are on our campuses every day. Walk-through metal detectors also require trained staff to monitor all those who would pass through them and to search people and bags as needed. There are some parents who are in favor of making the change and others who oppose it. As I mentioned, we are consulting with safety experts, and at the recommendation of safety experts (UP Police and FBI officials), we have purchased handheld metal detectors, which will permanently remain on campus.

Also, we have hired a safety firm (Defenbaugh & Associates, headed by retired FBI agent Danny Defenbaugh) to conduct thorough safety audits on all our campuses and to make recommendations regarding facility enhancements and staff training.

Here are some excerpts from the recent message from Dr. Orr and Chief Adams:

What daily safety measures are being taken on campus?

· We are checking student and faculty IDs, both at entrances and with random checks throughout the school day. We appreciate our students' cooperation, as this has been an adjustment for them. We appreciate our volunteers and visitors also wearing their badges while on campus.

· The University Park Police Department and Town of Highland Park are continuing to provide armed officers on campus.

· We have limited the student entrances to the two main entrances, and two other entrances on Douglas Avenue. All entry points are staffed by personnel. We have expanded the hours for security at these points, and custodians will not be opening the entrances until a staff member is present.

· The building has been searched by officers, dogs and bomb squads as needed.

· We have provided additional staff and have instructed supervising administrators, security guards and custodians with specific guidelines to prevent unnecessary access to areas of the building outside of school hours.

· Surveillance video cameras record 24/7, and we are working with UPPD and the FBI to review all relevant video footage, along with the review of forensic evidence. There are video cameras posted outside bathroom entrances.

Have you considered using metal detectors?

· We have carefully considered the use of metal detectors, which range from handheld detectors to walk-through machines.

· At this point, we have chosen to use handheld metal detectors as needed. The district has purchased handheld metal detectors, which will remain on campus permanently. In addition, UP police officers have their own handheld metal detectors.

· Members of the public have voiced strong opinions on this issue. While some suggest that we should install permanent airport-level security, others suggest that the installation of walk-through machines sends the wrong message to students.

What is the status of the investigation?

· In the interest of the integrity of the investigation and in the interest of student safety, we cannot share specific facts about what information has been obtained during questioning.

· Many people have been interviewed, and investigators have followed through on all leads.

· We will continue to keep you updated, and if an arrest is made, we will make a timely announcement.

· The FBI is continuing to partner with UP police on the investigation.

Have you searched students? What are the legal guidelines?

· Officials have conducted searches of backpacks, lockers, cars, cell phones, clothing and bodily searches when there is reasonable suspicion of prohibited conduct.

· Please note that HPISD must conduct its investigations within the boundaries of what is permissible under state and federal law. These laws include the Fourth Amendment's right against unreasonable searches by the government.

· Under the law, the district may only conduct a search when it has reasonable suspicion of prohibited conduct. Reasonable suspicion means specific and describable conduct exists that would lead a reasonable person to conclude that a particular student has engaged in prohibited conduct. The requisite reasonable suspicion must be present from the outset of the search. Reasonable suspicion must be more than a hunch or supposition. For example, it would be illegal for the district to seize every student's cell phone and review it for clues. It would also be illegal for the district to fingerprint all students.

· Privacy expectations can be minimized by telling students beforehand that certain locations, such as lockers or vehicles parked on school grounds, are subject to random search, which is something the district does on a regular basis.

How are parents and students being notified about threats?

· HPISD is communicating all emergencies through its text-messaging system, email and postings on the district website.

· Text messages allow the district to push instant notifications to users' cell phones. The software allows for a limited number of characters to be sent, so the texts will usually be brief and to the point. For more information, please check your email and the website.

· To sign up a parent or student for the text alerts, please refer to this FAQ. Faculty and staff can refer to this FAQ to sign up for text alerts.

How can parents help?

· We encourage our parents to talk to their children about the seriousness of the situation we are facing. In this case, a terroristic threat can result in felony charges and imprisonment. A parent's wisdom, understanding and guidance goes a long way toward helping a child understand the harmful effects that threats such as those made against our campus can have.

· Parents can also help by reporting any information and leads to the University Park Police Department at 214-987-5354, members of the HPHS Administration at 214-780-3700 and Crime Stoppers at 1-877-373-TIPS (8477). Tips may also be submitted on the web 24 hours a day.

· Anyone interested in contributing to the Crime Stoppers fund may do so by emailing HPISD's Assistant Superintendent for Business Services Tim Turner at turnert@hpisd.org.

· In an earlier update, we included a list of tips for helping keep our campuses safe.

We know that this has been a stressful time for our students, families, staff and community members. If your child has concerns, please encourage him or her to talk to a school counselor or a trusted teacher or other adult on campus. We appreciate your partnership, and we will continue to keep you informed.

Sincerely,
HPISD Superintendent Dr. Dawson Orr
UP Police Chief Gary Adams

Let me know if you need any additional information.

Helen Williams
Director of Communications
Highland Park ISD

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73 comments
RJette
RJette

There was also an incident of a student bringing machetes to HPHS back in December.

Cliffhanger
Cliffhanger

Them schools what have massacres are always in the suburbs, not the ghetto.

MikeWestEast
MikeWestEast

So this whole story is from a freelance writer whose sole source is herself? Give me a break! If a significant number of parents thought they needed detectors, the school would have moving vans full of them next day clogging up the Tollway and US75. They do not want them because they are a complete pain. At least the columnist is not getting his info from secret meetings of white people where HP residents hatch plots against minorities, his usual sources. I assume he did not want to put in the normal 20 minutes he spends writing this column. He ripped off an extract from elsewhere, and then let the usual cast of Park Cities phobes carry the ball.

bvckvs
bvckvs topcommenter

The irony here is that Highland Park is already urban - even without metal detectors.

For some reason "conservatives" no longer use the word properly, instead using it where they used to use the word "nigger" - and for the same reasons.

When she said "urban" she meant "niggerly", she just lacked the courage and character to be honest about it.  That's actually a good thing, because it means we've shamed scumbags like her into changing their language.

Americano
Americano

Maybe they turned them down once they realized that the threats were fake?

Montemalone
Montemalone topcommenter

Bush ignored all the warnings. Boom. Boom. Boom.

Why do republicans always get so up in a tizzy about bad guys and danger AFTER the bad guys do dangerous things?

Now we have to strip and get felt up by rent a cops to board a plane. while tossing beverages and cupcakes and full tubes of toothpaste in the trash.

This oughtta be interesting after somebody gets hurt.

MisterMean
MisterMean

Perhaps the solution is to turn all of the schools over to the private operations that run the prisons.  Who is prisons "Corrections Corp of America"?

howard383
howard383

@everlastingphelps  Actually, metal detectors have stopped people intending to do harm from taking a gun into a building to shoot people. Last August a man was stopped at the metal detector/x-ray machine at Frank Crowley Courthouse in Dallas when they spotted his laser-scoped gun. He was going to the 194th Judicial District Court to kill his wife's defense attorneys (both friends of mine), and possibly the prosecutor (a friend of mine) and the judge (a friend of mine). So making an absolute statement like "all metal detectors do is provide a convenient line of students to start shooting at" is ridiculous. 

http://www.dallasnews.com/news/crime/headlines/20120808-police-man-caught-with-gun-at-dallas-county-courthouse-planned-to-shoot-lawyers.ece

Furthermore, I went to W.T.White in the 1990s, which was hardly considered a bad school at the time. We had metal detectors. I know of at least two incidents that it prevented when disturbed/angry kids were caught with knives or ammunition. 

Metal detectors do put off a stigma that a place is dangerous, but HELLO.... as should be plainly clear after all these school shootings... schools have become dangerous places. Highland Park is not immune from disturbed kids nor is it immune from our virtually unchecked gun culture. It doesn't require gangs or anything like that to lead to tragedy. Really, what is the downside to having metal detectors? HP kids realize that their school - aside from being fabulously wealthy - is in some ways just like every other school in the nation? Welcome to reality.

ozonelarryb
ozonelarryb

Is it mean to rhapsodize over the potential rapists and stockbrokers that might get it in a hphs massacre?

rke
rke

Oh Yimmy.  hp decides metal detectors are urban, and your  point is what?  You suddenly care about the white boys?  They more dangerous to well off guys in Dallas"  I think I get the penis envy side, but why would care?

NoOneReadsTheEvidenc
NoOneReadsTheEvidenc

Um, HP Parent--the bullets maynot be detected but...cough...the gun would trigger the detector, helloooooo....unless it's brought in at night with no one to hear the detector go off.

A good safety tool would be to install keycards so that everyone is documented as to time in the buildlng. Every door to any entrance to the school, whether through the outside entrances or the entrance to the school from the gym and the pool, etc--every one of these should have a keypad like most commercial office buildings in Dallas have. At least there would be documentation as to time and place that parties entered. In other words if someone put bullets in during the day and had stuck a gun up in the ceiling tiles at night then that might narrow down the choice of who to interview. Given that bullets were left in the bathroom, I am shocked the police and or a parent committee have not gone room by room, poking through the ceiling files to see if there are weapons being stored for "the time." 

Also, in terms of comments on other blogs that the text threats are coming from disposable phones, I was given a copy of a text and it looked to me like a spoof card product.  I don't think you can use a spoof card from your phone to text multiple phones (kids) which means a spoof email delivered in the form of a text was sent from a computer. And, you can't download these types of apps on disposable phones, so that rules out the disposable phones.  These messages, when sent from a computer, can be time-delayed and are very tricky because you can also spoof the IP. But, you cannot spoof the original footprint at the end of the day and to send multiple messages at once (in other words to text 10 phones at a time) you must pay for the service. So, it would sure seem logical that SOMEONE might pull the spoof app providers and have them pull the origin of the messages delivered in the form of texts. But, maybe that doesn't happen in UP because the police administration is  are too busy wasting their time drinking the koolaid of sociopaths concoting potions to have innocent people arrested while the real criminals sit back and laugh because they know that common sense documentation is never reviewed. Too much work!

My bet is the culprit is NOT a student but either an adult working in or with access to the school, or with LE (law enforcement). It's a total longshot but could be a parent with access to the school who is angry over an issue with a stepchild and wants to cause a scene to "come to the rescue" or had a kid transfer to HPISD because of a divorce and wants to say, "I told you so." But, that is an extreme longshot. But, this is fairly sophisticated for a child and so my guess is it's an adult and not a janitor. Does anyone remember when the front parking area was repainted? There was a certain secretary new to the school stalking parents who stupidly did not know they were not supposed to temporily park on the east side, and she would come out and scream at parents who were clueless. Very controllng. And, isn't that what stalking and threats is about? To control the victim(s) so they cannot focus on anything except either protecting themselves or their children, or defending themselves when falsely accused? For example the boy falsely accused of rape. Glad to see him file the lawsuit and wipe the smirking faces off of certain parties who thought his every move would be controlled by their allegations and gossip.

For those who continue to dismiss this behavior as a hoax the truth is no one knows but the culprit(s). Escalating behavior like this, with this type of discipline being displayed makes me extremely concerned something is going to happen. One only look at the North Korea situation to see that those with an agenda, and time and money, and some psychosis do carry through on their threats. 

EricCeleste
EricCeleste

And yet, metal detectors have been in at Booker T since it opened in the Arts District, and it remains one of the most wonderful educational environments you can imagine. Somehow, those kids manage to learn, foster their creativity, and cope amazingly well. Because, unlike most parents, they adapt quickly and efficiently to the real world.

HP_Parent
HP_Parent

I am also a parent of a Highland Park student. I absolutely do not want detectors. We have police officers and security personnel monitoring the entrances. The notes have been hoaxes designed to instill fear. I have been told that the detectors would not have found the ammo. The most recent incident involved a girl who unknowingly brought the ammo to school herself in her backpack. Please spend at least a few minutes at the school before passing judgement on the district's decision.

everlastingphelps
everlastingphelps topcommenter

What good are metal detectors going to do against an active shooter?  They don't go to three classes and THEN start shooting.  They start shooting at the front door.

All metal detectors would do is provide them a convenient line of students to START shooting at.

j.walter.miller
j.walter.miller

@howard383 Unchecked gun culture?  We have a plethora of laws regarding guns.  Purchases require background checks.  We have laws regarding automatic weapons.  Statues limit the ability to carry guns in the open or in a concealed fashion.  Take your Huffington Post propaganda elsewhere.

JimSX
JimSX topcommenter

@rke 

Me trike beaches diplo hundai.

scottindallas
scottindallas topcommenter

@NoOneReadsTheEvidenc you must not be a customer in office buildings.  The visitors seldom have the keys.  Those cards are to monitor your work/hours, not for safety.  Perhaps they said as much, but again, a customer would seem to present a greater threat. 

everlastingphelps
everlastingphelps topcommenter

@EricCeleste That's like saying that because Bing Crosby beat the shit out of his kids and they turned out OK, we should all be beating the shit out of our kids.

DallasGuy
DallasGuy

@HP_Parent  and yet those same safety officials said that metal detectors are necessary... I am going to hate the day when I am reading stories about when one of these "hoaxes" turns out to be real. I hate the idea of metal detectors in schools as much as anyone, but where there's smoke there's fire and school officials have a DUTY to do everything in their power to protect the staff and students from a threat. 

I am sorry that "the bubble" has been pierced, but it's time to get your heads out of the sand before a real tragedy happens here. 

JimSX
JimSX topcommenter

@everlastingphelps 

Great argument. On that basis, we should disband all police departments and the military because, what the hell, the bad guys are all-powerful and we are utterly helpless passive victims. They are dealing with a progressive nutcase who is begging to get caught, not a brilliant Dr. Evil. 

MisterMean
MisterMean

@scottindallas  Yes we have.   I guess my point is that the way we are going this is the logical end game for it.   Not that I agree with it but when I was at school back in the 70's it was not like it is today (metal detectors, cops in the hall ways, etc.....).   The TX leg wants to arm teachers and turn the class room into a version of the OK Corral.  I have visions of my elderly English teacher packing heat.   I confess I do not have the answer but sure am glad I "served my sentence" at the DISD back in the 70's

ozonelarryb
ozonelarryb

@Tedd @ozonelarryb if just by posting I can bring simple pleasure to simple minds, then woohoo.

NoOneReadsTheEvidenc
NoOneReadsTheEvidenc

@scottindallas @NoOneReadsTheEvidenc Scott, if you follow this case you will see that items are being left in bathrooms, etc. In all the commercial buildings with keycodes there is a security desk where the visitor is given a pass. Same thing with Highland Park high school. The front door is locked and you must get a pass from the woman in the front on the left--or you are supposed to, many times she is not there. Now with this happening a lot of changes have happened to how you can enter the building but you can still, for example, enter the school through the door at the back of the swim area, etc. Keycards on all these areas would at least time and date who enters the building so in the event someone comes in in the morning and finds bullets in the restroom they can pull who was in the building before then. The fact they have cameras pointed and can't figure it out--to me this means someone came in at night and put a little hanky over the camera and went into the bathroom and did this. 


You did not comment on the spoof app angle. Thoughts?

EricCeleste
EricCeleste

@everlastingphelps @EricCeleste No, it's the opposite of that. It's saying that the idea metal detectors will harm HP schools because they're often found in bad schools is ridiculous. Because you can find them in good schools, bad schools, etc. It's irrelevant to the environment created there. And if the person who evaluates such things for a living says it could make the schools safer, then you're an idiot to suggest otherwise, especially for such nonsense reasons.

NoOneReadsTheEvidenc
NoOneReadsTheEvidenc

@DallasGuy @HP_Parent You might remember that John Hinckley, Jr. attended Highland Park High School, having grown up in University Park. Dallas Guy is absolutely right, this may not be a hoax so let's use some common sense, pull the damn spoof app records and get the creepo who is doing this. Install keycards going forward, there's plenty of money around HIghland Park that would pitch in for common sense safety--as long as it was used for that.

For the  self-imposed socially correct, implant-laden Barbies on here who don't know who Hinckley is, he's the mentally ill guy who stalked Jodie Foster and then shot President Reagan to impress her.

By the way I'd also like to say there are some really good cops in UP, those aren't the ones mentioned in the comment above. Those cops are as frustrated as the parents with the lack of common sense in taking this seriously and getting to the bottom of it. And, Helen Williams, gosh, I cannot stand two faced people who throw others under the bus. Pam Kripke is a renowned writer with impeccable credentials, a true bird dog in the age of those who cannot stand up for anything anymore, and who has  a much more interesting career than Helen ever will. Glad to see Jim back her on this--pretty pathetic no one in HPISD administration did. I bet they haven't checked the ceiling tiles in their offices, either--yet.

everlastingphelps
everlastingphelps topcommenter

@JimSX @everlastingphelps The police and military come in after the bad act has started.  They don't prevent it.  The police in fact have no legal duty to protect you -- just to investigate after the fact.

If the metal detectors somehow made the police more effective at catching the shooter after they started, they would have some worth.  That isn't how they work.  They won't help catch them before they start, because they will just start in front of the metal detectors (where, because of the fatal funnel, there will be a ton of soft targets.)

Face it, Jim -- metal detectors are a feel good illusion based on emotion, not reason.  The purely economic downsides in lost time and wages make them a bad idea, but adding in the indoctrination angle makes it even worse.

The reality is, Highland Park parents are raising THEIR kids to be leaders and independent thinkers, and therefore they don't want metal detectors.  It puts what they think about NON-Highland Park students into stark contrast, no?

JimSX
JimSX topcommenter

@EricCeleste @JimSX 

But sometimes I'm afraid Phelps is taking over. My hands get all hairy. 

JimSX
JimSX topcommenter

Eric, you do know, I assume, that I am Phelps.

JimSX
JimSX topcommenter

@EricCeleste @everlastingphelps

Eric and Phelpsie, sittin' in a tree, ....

everlastingphelps
everlastingphelps topcommenter

@DallasGuy @everlastingphelps @HP_Parent Take a look at what the guide ACTUALLY says.  It doesn't say that they have any responsibility to protect students.  It just says that they have a duty to report crimes -- after they have been committed.

everlastingphelps
everlastingphelps topcommenter

@DallasGuy@everlastingphelps@HP_Parent

South v. Maryland, 59 U.S. (How.) 396, 15 L.Ed.433 (1856)

DeShaney v. Winnebago County Department of Social Services, 489 U.S. 189, 109 S.Ct. 998, 1989 (1989)

Hartzler v. City of San Jose, 46 Cal.App.3d 6, 120 Cal.Rptr. 5 (1975)

 There's plenty more than that, if you are interested.  Given that it goes back to 1856, it's pretty well established.

mavdog
mavdog topcommenter

@everlastingphelps

wow. you found an instance where a shooter killed someone in a building that has a metal detector.. I suppose that one instance shows people are in harm's way by a metal detector. uh, no, it doesn't.

ridiculous logic on your part. go figure....

everlastingphelps
everlastingphelps topcommenter

"the shooters did not attempt to breach the security in the building, but went to other means, reinforces their effectiveness."

Well, I am sure that it is a huge consolation to the family that he was murdered on the street rather than INSIDE the courthouse.  Takes all the sting away, probably.

mavdog
mavdog topcommenter

@everlastingphelps

you have such an amazing ability to peer into the mind of dead people, telling us what the shooters were thinking. You point out Lanza, I can point out Holmes, who had a plan of escape.

the bottom line: you're putting forth assumptions as facts, it is not supported, and you can't say with authority what these shooters plan.

If detectors are "the most effective place to start shooting", it would stand to reason we would experience numerous cases of this happening. But we don't. It is extremely rare, and isolated when it has occured. You fail again.

If metal detectors are ineffective, where are the cases of the shooters breaching them? what, you don't have them? the detectors have shown their effectiveness by the lack of shootings? You fail again.

The Kauffman shooting are likely targeted assasinations. The home attack reinforces this. metal detectors are geared to prevent this type of situation, and clearly the fact that the shooters did not attempt to breach the security in the building, but went to other means, reinforces their effectiveness.

everlastingphelps
everlastingphelps topcommenter

@mavdog @everlastingphelps You have shown that you know nothing about active shooters. 

First, it's not about murder.  It's about suicide.  Murder is the method that they use to "make a statement" in their suicide.  Lanza, for example, seems to have seen the body count as a score card -- but he killed himself long before he ever saw a cop.  

Second, the metal detectors simply won't do what you propose.  Even IF they were worried about the gun being detected, there is a blindingly simply solution.  Start shooting before the metal detectors.  In fact, it's often the most effective place to start shooting, because there will be a line of at least 20-30 students there, all queued up and organized.  If he is at the front or back of the line, they are all in enfilade (wiki it) and he doesn't even have to make any particular aim.  LINES ARE DEADLY.

In short, metal detectors "expose" the weapon.  So does opening fire.

Metal detectors don't stop shooters.  They just move them.  That's why the Kaufman prosecutor was shot OUTSIDE the courthouse.  That's why the recent courthouse shooter in California (? working from memory) started shooting at the entrance where the metal detectors are.  Metal detectors don't stop a damned thing.  They just change the location.

Dallas
Dallas

@mavdog @everlastingphelps

"the person who is trying to get past this defense with a gun understands that the detector will in almost every instance expose their weapon. that is deterrence"

This to me says it all.  You may not catch many weapons at security because people won't bring them in to begin with. 

If you look at some of the communities where mass shootings have occurred, they are not exactly high crime, low income, gang ridden areas.  HP is not immune to this any more than Connecticut. 

mavdog
mavdog topcommenter

@everlastingphelps 

once again, your closed mind doesn't see the forest for the trees.

it is wrong to presume that every actor in a murder believes they won't "survive the crime". many, really most, have plans in place that they believe will allow their getaway. When they realize escape is futile they take their life.

second, to get back to why metal detectors work, the person who is trying to get past this defense with a gun understands that the detector will in almost every instance expose their weapon. that is deterrence.

everlastingphelps
everlastingphelps topcommenter

@mavdog @everlastingphelps once again, you sail right by the point. Deterrence is about punishment -- you can't punish someone who doesn't plan to survive the crime.

mavdog
mavdog topcommenter

@everlastingphelps 

thanks for proving my point. notice "inhibition of criminal behavior", inhibition is to stop the act from occuring.

everlastingphelps
everlastingphelps topcommenter

@mavdog @everlastingphelps

Deterrence: the act or process of deterring: as

a : the inhibition of criminal behavior by fear especially of punishment

mavdog
mavdog topcommenter

@everlastingphelps

"deterrence only comes into effect by punishing what people have already done".

what a load of crock. the above quote shows you have no idea what deterrence means.

in fact, deterrence is not about after the fact, it is focused on having the actor think about what they plan to do before the fact.

wow. just complete stupidity on your part.

scottindallas
scottindallas topcommenter

@JimSX Jim, why not let us choose the air security regime of our choice.  What's wrong with Fly by Night Air AND El Al both being available?  Hell, if you worry about a 9/11 redux, then put a self destruct button on planes.

scottindallas
scottindallas topcommenter

@everlastingphelps @JimSX they're not raised to be independent thinkers, they're told to listen and the game will come to them.  The HP set FEARS independent thinking, and will ostracize anyone who might be an independent thinker and be earnest, honest or ask questions. 

everlastingphelps
everlastingphelps topcommenter

@mavdog You look up the word "prevention."  If you have third grade reading comprehension, you will see that they are two very different concepts.  Deterrence only comes into effect by punishing what people have already done.  Active shooters go in planning to commit suicide, and therefore cannot be deterred.

mavdog
mavdog topcommenter

@everlastingphelps @JimSX

I suggest You look up the word "deterrence". You seem to have failed to grasp the meaning of the word.

ScottsMerkin
ScottsMerkin topcommenter

@everlastingphelps Im here to tell you they find and stop much more than is ever reported on the news.  The way the news finds out is scouring police reports and then goes to the TSA for the story, the TSA isn't going to the news.  While the TSA in itself is a joke, they still do offer a line of defense otherwise no there

everlastingphelps
everlastingphelps topcommenter

@ScottsMerkin @everlastingphelps Because if the TSA brags about getting football coaches and soccer moms trying to carry guns on planes, they would never shut up if they ever actually caught a REAL terrorist.

ScottsMerkin
ScottsMerkin topcommenter

@everlastingphelps please enlighten me as to how you know the not one airplane attack has been thwarted by metal detectors or TSA?  

everlastingphelps
everlastingphelps topcommenter

@JimSX Name one airplane attack that has been stopped by metal detectors and the TSA. 

On the other hand, I can name PLENTY that were stopped by the passengers -- United 93, the shoe bomber, the panty bomber, and those are just the terrorists, not the random schizophrenic wilding out.

Oh, and if I had a choice between the armed and unarmed flights, I would take the armed one every time.

JimSX
JimSX topcommenter

@everlastingphelps @JimSX 

We need to have special no-security flights so people like you can travel together on furlough days when there are no flight controllers and pilots don't have to have licenses.

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