Mike Miles Taps Teach for America's DFW Director as DISD's New Chief Talent Officer

Glover_DAL.jpg
Charles Glover wants your talent.
Teach for America, the teacher pipeline founded by Highland Parker Wendy Kopp, is often tossed into the bucket with the rest of the tools in the reform movement's toolbox, from charter schools to performance-based pay and the like. For that, and for its place outside the labor movement, it's often maligned.

But it gets results -- if you consider immediate test score gains to be results -- and principals, at least in Dallas, are unabashed in their reliance on TFA "corps members."

Which is why, no doubt, one of Mike Miles' first hires as Dallas Independent School District's superintendent is a Teach for America veteran: Charles Glover, the bright, genial, Harvard-educated director of TFA's Dallas office. Glover, 29, will take over as DISD's first Chief Talent Officer, responsible for recruiting and developing teachers, principals and other district staff.

"I see this as a way to continue the work that we're doing," Glover told me this afternoon.

Glover's a College Station native and an A&M grad who found his way into education through TFA, working for the organization during college before landing a corps jobs in Durham, North Carolina, where he taught and coached football. He got a master's degree from Harvard and, three and a half years ago, opened the Dallas office of Teach for America.

Glover quickly grew Dallas' corps from 100 teachers in 2009 to 300, many of whom are and will continue to be employed by DISD. The district recently re-upped with the nonprofit for five years.

In his new gig, Glover says, he'll be responsible for attracting teachers, principals and other staff to the district -- a task that will obviously be made easier by his considerable contacts in the education field. Expect Teach for America's presence in DISD to grow -- in active corps members, and also in alumni. And expect some grumbling about that.

Glover will also help develop educators once they're here, and innovate ways to improve recruitment and training. He says he'll explore much-needed relationships with universities and other nonprofits -- and no, not just TFA.

"Teach for America is one pipeline that the district can leverage," he said. "It's not the only pipeline. It shouldn't be, and it can't be."


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151 comments
OCgraduate
OCgraduate

Actually, as part of a course I am taking at UNT about neoliberalism and education, I have discovered this "DISD takeover" has been planned by many political influentials at city, state, conservative think tank organizations and CEO levels. The bottom line is privatizing public schools, that they call giving low-income families more choices. But corporate money and "return on investment" is the true focal point, not an altruistic notion of saving the children or families of poverty by empowering them with quality education! There are ample evidences of how to do that in highly regarded research literature. These politicians and upper-level district officials do not want that. They generate their own or as the brief I link you to does, they pick and choose which statistics to highlight even if they are from an insignigicant part of the study. Nevertheless, global research clearly states the incredible complexity of true reform. However, the vast majority of success stories begins locally, with the families/ neighborhoods/teachers  identifying common ground from where to begin growth in positive ways. Reconceptualization begins a positive trajectory for change and punative measures stifle or dismantle progress. Trust must first be established before any of the mentioned persons are ready for change. I just finished reading a policy brief that disturbs me greatly. It confirms my suspicions that this "DISD takeover" was planned  and will proceed just as it has in Chicago, NYC, New Orleans, Colorado, etc... The same conservative NPO and politicians from both sides of the aisle (but primarily Republican) are recruiting "young leaders" to exponentially increase charter schools in the next 5 - 10 years. This is a how-to (of sorts) secure taxpayer money to "incubate charter schools". See http://edexcellencemedia.net/p...  Yes, Miles' has many affiliations with charter schools, some of which were mentioned in the brief.  I am scared for my home turf of OC because billions of dollars are linked with this goal of creating a tiered system of education the haves and the have-nots seperately and yet Arne Duncan & Romney (and many others) are pushing this agenda on us by claiming that "this is the civil rights issue of the the decade". If they just fire certified teachers and rehire young, new teachers with spirit & send tax payer money to CEOs, they are imulating MLK, right?

thinkbout
thinkbout

PS I trained many TFA ers in the past few years, and their opinions of Glover's methods, ideologies and training are not that great...perhaps why they may leave...they are also trained not to say anything.....

thinkbout
thinkbout

Looks like Hinokosa's long term dream of creating a revolving door of new teachers every five years will come true under Miles.  TFA is a wonderful organization....for training lab rats.  Nobody on these posts has mentioned that a great deal of these TFA'ers are gone within three years.  So let's spend some money to temporarily raise test scores in low income areas without considering value based, critical thinking based, problem solving instruction---while these "bright young minds" use DISD as a Peace Corp tour of duty and then move on to other high paying jobs in the private sector industry......Ummm......isn't that what both Glover and Miles did themselves?? We have yet to see a track record or years of service in their OWN teaching records.   A career veteran teacher with proven yearly results and VALUE ADDED (instead of test passing) is now becoming a thing of the past.....Gee...I guess a parent wants a new teacher for their kids every year....kind of like I want a resident intern performing an appendectomy on me, instead of a 25 year surgeon....Makes sense, doesn't it???

We Are Sparta
We Are Sparta

Amateurs...amatuers everywhere.  Creating a "Chief Talent Officer" reeks of naivete.  So much for cutting the fat down on Ross Ave.  Staffing it without advertising and evaluating multiple candidates rings of solipsism and/or an afternoon of Olympic level games of Kool-aid Pong.  DISD does need a shakeup, there is and has been race-based hiring, there are great teachers and there are math teachers who show movies in class. Bit we have gone from the Broad Award to the Snowed Award.  What we have going on, big picture, is self-deluded (mostly) Republicans working to syphon money from the billions spent each year on education, through charters, .  Venture capitalists are pouring money into ed-tech startups, for example.  Breaking the mostly Democratic and minority teachers' unions is just icing on the 1%'s cake.  Morath, Nutall, Miles, Grover are all acolytes from the same "run a school like a business" Cult of Bullshit that is an mutant demonspawn of the illicit copulation under a bloodred full moon by  the "run a religion like a business" that has given us Scientology, The PTL Club, The 700 Club and the "Greed is Good"/"invisible hand"/"government is the problem" bastards who crashed our economy. 

guest
guest

The more things change, the more they stay the same: A new superintendent gets behind an innovative program which shows some improvement and then gives way to the latest craze championed by a new leader. I give Miles and Glover 3 years max. Neither seems particularly interested in a long-term commitment.

Hinojosa's big thing was Institute for Learning (IFL) which was the hottest ticket in urban education at the time. Despite marked gains in student achievement and graduation rates, Hinojosa and the IFL were run out of town by an informal organization that pays lip-service to the latest innovation while at the same time employing a passive aggressive campaign to undermine any change that puts money into new pockets.

As reform efforts go, TFA is small potatoes compared to IFL. It will be implemented much more quickly than IFL and will be measured by the success of less than 3% of DISD teachers wherease IFL targeted 75% (all math science, social studies and ELA faculty).

BTW, no one lasts long as Chief of Staff. Getting that job is nothing more than a face-saving way to be shown the door. Hinojosa gave each of his up to a year to find something else. If Miles is smart he has given King no more than six months.

 

primi_timpano
primi_timpano

cp has it right.  The college track for all high school students is no longer a viable platform.  College costs are high, the graduating college students are saddled with debt, and unless they have excelled or majored in a hard science, their future economic prospects are dismal.  If students have low scores and/or grades, they should be encouraged to pursue vocational training.  We still need the plumbers, carpenters, mechanics, etc., and these service jobs will never be outsourced internationally.

I still cannot get over the venom expelled on TFA.  These are bright, highly motivated, high achieving graduates who are willing to devote considerable time to teach DISD children.  Yes, they leave after two years, and yes, they may be padding their resume, but even the US Army requires only a two year commitment, and there is little difference between resume padding and maximizing your job potential.  If this kind of discussion were directed at enlistees who commit for only two years these comments would not look very good.  And they don't.

I am tired of all the sturm und drang leveled at TFA, its supposedly insidious politics and presumably uncommitted teachers.  DISD is broken into pieces and no one wants to take his or her share of the blame.  The students point at the teachers, the parents defend "their excellent teachers," the teachers blame the board and the parents, and the board can't seem to keep from drowning in their own incompetence.

Miles is a good beginning, Glover is a new beginning.  Anything different cannot be much worse than what is there now.

Diane Birdwell
Diane Birdwell

The first crop of TFA's are now leaving DISD. Their time is up. Time to get more new people. Time again to train them on how things are done. Time again to integrate them into classes and campuses. Time again to see if any are willing to take over in extracurricular activities done by the previous TFA'er.

The DISD spent 0 dollars to recruit me. I walked through the door. I had two semesters of student teaching in MISD to prove I could handle it. We are spending $3.2 million --read that number---for temporary workers. TEMPORARY.

As it is in education, half of all teachers leave after five years, but this almost predicts that you will have a turnover in staff much more quickly. I thought our mission was to graduate work and college ready kids--and the main measurement is only test scores? Kinda tells you where the emphasis is these days in education, does it not? Some do well, some do not. Some outperform, but MANY do not. They work hard. Great, but so do I.

We aren't losing bad teachers--we are losing good ones who are fed up. We are losing fully trained veterans and replacing them with temps.

Here you go, an idea: Restaff Village Fair with ALL TFA. Dead serious. FULLY staff it, so they come back to our campuses with all credits, not just core classes caught up. THAT would be worth our money.

And please spare me about Wendy Kopp. TFA may be non-profit, but she and her husband make off pretty well from it.  

We saw this coming from a long way off. That is the goal of Kopp---put TFA's all inside school districts. They do not hide their goal of reforming public schools into a place of temp workers, as if my years of experience somehow undermines me.

I wish this man well, because I want DISD to do well. We shall see. We shall see.

Cliffhanger
Cliffhanger

I'm not a huge fan of DISD's TFA deal, but Glover has certainly made a commitment to a career in education and it looks like it's part of an effort by Miles to clean house. That's promising. Baby steps, and keep holding people's feet to the fire.

MattL1
MattL1

Theoretically, what's wrong with throwing an unmitigated fuckload (technical term) of money at our schools? I'm not talking about an x% increase per student. I'm talking Pentagon-type money. 

Comment Sheriff
Comment Sheriff

thinkabout - the serial carper strikes again - anonymously, of course...

April
April

 "So let's spend some money to temporarily raise test scores in low income areas without considering value based, critical thinking based, problem solving instruction"

I believe the kids who stay in the good charters through high school graduation do show great long-term results.  

Where is the value based, critical-thinking based, problem-solving instruction being done?What does it look like, and what are its long-term results?  

Cares About Kids
Cares About Kids

Such a load of venom, focused on protecting adults.  The old way ain't working, Sparta. Time to get out of the way.  Check out what's going on in New Orleans post-Katrina.  They blew up the system.  Its now 80% charters and parents pick from any school they want to attend.  Operators compete voraciously for talent.  If they don't serve their kids, their parents take their child (and their revenue) and go to another school....the ultimate accountability.  Great teachers feel like the professionals they are, recruited heavily for their skills.  Ineffective teachers are trained/developed, but if they don't grow, they move on to another career, which is the way the rest of the world (outside of K-12 public education) truly works.  And New Orleans academic outcomes are shooting thru the roof relative to the depths of where they were.

The old view that a monopoly, governed by a board elected by the very few who self-interestedly pick the trustees that will keep the adults from having accountability, is OVER.  Finally, enough people said ENOUGH is ENOUGH.  Somebody decided its time to fight for the kids, who have been relying on the adults forever to make the best decision on THEIR behalf, only to be repeatedly disappointed.  Thank god things are changing.

April
April

Yes. College track for everyone is off-base, but working to improve education in low-performing schools to expand the ranks of the college-ready is worthwhile and fair.    

kesslerwatch
kesslerwatch

That's true. And since new beginnings are wonderful and TFA is wonderful, let's change superintendents every two years. Out with the old and in with the new court jesters.

Diane Birdwell
Diane Birdwell

Young soldiers are meant to go fight and die for their country. They are not in the training end of the organization. They are--and have been--the "expendable" part of the military equation.

"Teachers are expendable," is that what you are saying?

I was a soldier for 9 years, so if you want to use a comparison, we are not the grunts--although we are treated like it. We should be treated as the NCO's, the PROFESSIONAL  experts who stay on for years, honing their skills and TRAINING EVERYONE else.

As I said in the DMN blog recently:

My father told me when I got my commission, "Diane, obey your officers, but for God's sake, LISTEN to your NCO's! They can either save your life or kill your career."

We have no venom for the poor young TFA recruit, but there is resentment that we are constantly being told that "older, more experienced teachers" are the problem in this place. That we know nothing, our opinion does not matter, that our devotion and dedication mean little if our test scores are not high enough.

We are not given a two year stint, a two year contract, they are. Many have cherry-picked classes, and often, ironically, who is holding their hands as they learn the day to day? It sure as heck isn't TFA, but us old ones---you know, the not-so-good ones.

April
April

I thought teachers' contracts were for only one year. TfA teachers agree to two years. We don't call the non-TfA'ers temporary, so we shouldn't call TfA teachers TEMPORARY. .

Damnyouflores
Damnyouflores

Diane they will never go for that and you know it.  It will mess their fantastic pie charts and bar charts they use to trick folks into beleiving that TFA is just as good as experienced teachers in DISD.

Taylor June
Taylor June

The Village Fair idea has legs...great legs.  Diane, do you believe the data that Webster's dept. puts put about the TFA's success in comparison to veteran teachers?

Yomama
Yomama

 This is not a career in Education. A career in education would be a teacher Globber is making a career on making hundreds of thousands from education.

Oak Cliff Townie
Oak Cliff Townie

 Its not the money it is the Raw materials that come into  the front door .

kesslerwatch
kesslerwatch

And that board of trustees that you think should be gone is the basis for democracy. What you are proposing is Broad 101--get rid of the influence of those elected through the democratic process and take charge of the district, paramilitary style. That's known as a junta politically. Get it--you are denouncing hundreds of years of democratic rule along with the Constitution of the United States.

The first thing Miles will attempt to do is neuter the board. Hinojosa tried through rewriting policy to his benefit.

kesslerwatch
kesslerwatch

New Orleans is the lowest rated school district in Louisiana. Like Bill Gates espousing choice in public education while he was the biggest monopolist outside Standard Oil, TFA wants to be the biggest provider of noncertified teachers for the poor in the country. Ruled by hubris and fueled by federal dollars, Wendy has spread lies about the effectiveness of TFA is order to enrich herself.

CAK doesn't have a clue about what is happening in New Orleans. Those parents with the most mobility and resources chase around town trying to get their kids enrolled in what is massive chaos. The poorer parents without transportation are left behind. New Orleans has reverted back to a two-tier system of poor and those with resources, and the results have been horrible. TFA has been a bust for many:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...

kesslerwatch
kesslerwatch

Mooing is also fun. Cows do it all day and you sound like one.

primi_timpano
primi_timpano

I agree, but at grades 10 or 11 (more likely much sooner) the school should be able to assess college track students. Ideally this number goes up over time, but will never be 100%, in fact it may be some time before DISD hits 50. We need to focus more on the facts and help non- college students as best we can. Right now these non college kids have no viable options.

primi_timpano
primi_timpano

 Teachers are not expendable.  I would hope our front line infantry is not expendable.  My analogy was meant to convey my belief that we as citizens should be grateful to both TFA and soldiers for their efforts.  Since my post concerned TFA, I kept the analogy on point.  My gratitude extends to all teachers making an honest effort to do the best they can.  A good NCO doesn't only cover the commissioned officer (my father was 90 day wonder in the WWII Navy and he has told me the exact thing about his NCO--didn't issue an order before consulting him), he covers his or her enlisted men.  I am sure you help all your colleagues, TFA included.  It is called team work and ignoring your personal beliefs in order to accomplish school related goals.

As far as assessing accountability, the fish rots from the head down.  The board is certainly accountable.  We, the electorate are accountable for electing the board.  Parents are accountable for not fostering a favorable learning environment.  Ineffective teachers are accountable--let's face it, not all teachers are great; any bell curve will tell you so.  I have difficulty laying a lot of the blame on students.  They are effectively conscripts.

Until DISD, its staff, and the teachers recognize they are all part of this morass, and work together to improve the schools, we will be continually be thwarted by political and institutional schemes to maximize one's position at the expense of schools and students.

Bad superintendents should be fired.  Same with DISD staff and teachers.  If you cannot accept an environment of radical change you will be plagued by the same problems.  An education will mean zero to an extremely high percentage of students, most students going to college will be unprepared, negating the benefits of a college education, and our society and economy will remain shackled.

So enough about TFA and the "big" problems.  What about meaningful vocational education?  What about honest counseling about the benefits and costs of college versus the expected advantages a student may obtain there?

So far all I here see is finger pointing and sturm und drang.

You cannot fix a problem until you find the problem and accept it and its solutions for what they are,

kesslerwatch
kesslerwatch

Well, April,  TFA is treated to special contracts where they are assured two years on the government payroll in addition to whatever else falls their way in terms of payoff of school debt or free master's degrees or lunch with the Bushes.

Pathetic old career teachers only get a one year contract because they are old and pathetic and can't be trusted just like Wendy says..repeatedly.  Career educators cannot be trusted and the Bushes don't invite them to lunch because they are not special.

As far as temp workers. REAL teachers are treated as temp workers but TFA is only here temporarily because teaching is no longer a real career. Ask the majority. It doesn't pay well enough and teachers are not treated respectfully and the conditions are bad and you don't get free lunch and dinners like you do on Wall St. And they are all so smart that they deserve much better. That's the reason they are given preference over credentialed teachers from area universities.

If this makes no sense, it is because it makes no sense.

Diane Birdwell
Diane Birdwell

Temp by teaching standards. You cannot build a long-term plan for a campus if you have a rollover of staff every two years.

April
April

TfA achieves better results across the country. Do you really think every school and district is faking the numbers? Quite a conspiracy. please sic the DMN on them if there's a shred of evidence of falsifying records.

Oak Cliff Townie
Oak Cliff Townie

" Diane, do you believe the data that Webster's dept. puts put about the TFA's success in comparison to veteran teachers?"

Tell me the numbers you want I bet I can pencil whip any Data to match it .Not so perfect that someone would suspect but good enough to satisfy the numbers crunchers .

Just sayin'
Just sayin'

Teaching isn't the only way to have a career in education. You may have noticed that there're are a few other job opportunities in this district. And making hundreds of thousands in education is bad, but we're all cool with the regional manager of a candy manufacturer making that much? Principals of our larger high schools routinely make over 100k. It's fine... especially since we're tasking them with the education of our future generation. If we as a country put our money where our mouths are, folks in education, top to bottom would be making more.

April
April

Am I wrong in thinking the TfA teachers certify during the first two years?   

April
April

Yes, but I think this'd be a hard-sell in this country. Eupore has steered kids into academic and vocational education based on performance for years, but I can't see that happening here. This is a good thing for those kids who mature late with respect to performing up to their academic potential. We ought to offer the opportunity to kids who choose a vocational path though. 

Comment Sheriff
Comment Sheriff

Diane, you have serious cojones and for that, I applaud you. All you anonymous posers - Diane is schooling you...

April
April

Might make sense for the state to take a close look at all charters. Who's accountable for the charters' performance?

kesslerwatch
kesslerwatch

Need to also monitor Uplift's rolls since they love to stick teachers in core academic where they don't have undergrad degrees.

Guest
Guest

If they are not experts in the fields they are teaching then they should not be in the program because that is a prime objective of the program. It does not surprise me that DISD has not implemented the program with fidelity because LC ED's are and have been idiots. I realize there are content experts among DISD faculty but there will never be enough until every single one is.

cp
cp

That's why I asked the question earlier. Diane and I were both on the "Advisory Committee" for DISD area 9 and I think it was about the time they were gutting the Skyline clusters. 

I went to an IB school in Garland, worked in the work program, scored very well on my ACT, got accepted to a very prestigious college in Druid Hills, GA, dropped out after two years, came back to Dallas, started a business and then sold it five years later and then went into the non-profit sector. 

So, outstanding grades in an IB program + a very high ACT score + acceptance to a top college = dropped out and did my own thing. College is not for everyone and by god, I NEEDED that two years of working while in high school. I learned more from it than I did while in college, except for how to not piss off my professors by arguing certain business "philosophies".  

kesslerwatch
kesslerwatch

Excuse please--when did TFA become content experts? Many are not teaching in their major field of study, or is there a belief that they are just experts in every field??

There are excellent veteran teachers in Dallas who have been identified as content experts, but they are not TFA.  Gotta wonder about that.

primi_timpano
primi_timpano

 Thank you for the Voc Ed facts.  It is beyond my comprehension that a school district would gut this kind of program.  College is not for everyone, as the europeans have recognized for some time, and depriving kids of a shot at real opportunity is shameful.

My father is still living and quite well; in his mid 80s and still goes to the office everyday as my mother won't countenance him being home all day everyday.  Unfortunately he lives in San Antonio and cannot travel.  I am very good friends with a long time family friend who was in the OSS behind enemy lines recruiting tribal clans to fight the Japanese.  He has much more interesting stories to tell than anyone I have met from the WWII era.  I will call him tomorrow and see if he is interested in visiting your classes; I think he will be.  He is witty and articulate and I would pay to listen to him at your school.

When I withdraw a little from these discussions I remember that 99% of us want the same thing: a good future for our families, friends and other loved ones.  I think we all agree about the problems at DISD and their daunting magnitude, although we disagree about the solutions.  It is clear to me that no one has a provable solution.  Perhaps DISD needs to experiment with a menu of solutions to determine better what works and is workable

Diane Birdwell
Diane Birdwell

1. If your dad is still with us, no offense intended, please contact me via Facebook. I bring  in about 50 vets at one time to speak with our kids where I teach.... I need more WW II, since you know we are losing them so fast now. 2. Vocational? WE LOVE Voc-Ed, we teachers do. We have ALWAYS said the world needs carpenters, plumbers and surveyors, not just doctors, lawyers and teachers. Voc-Ed was TAKEN out of Dallas by--yep, drum-roll---some study, some consultant, who said that we need to have more college type classes. We also had minority leaders complaining that white kids were being tracked to college and minority kids were tracked to Voc-Ed. So the solution was to cancel Voc-Ed--and guess what? While many more of our minority kids now go on to college, MANY MORE drop out. They do not want to go to college, they want a JOB as soon as they graduate. J---O---B. 3. Two--three years ago, they tried to gut what was left of some of the voc clusters at Skyline. The senior admins at 3700 wanted to remove 10 clusters and put them at Conrad and such. Why? To spread the higher scoring black kids around to stop so many high schools from being low -performing. Serious. We put up such a fight in the community, they only moved a couple and they died on the vine. 4. We are trying to fix the problem, but we are ignored. I am one of the few brave (stupid?) enough to put my name and photo to my comments. If more actually stood up, told the truth, and explained to you all what would really help us teach---never mind, I dream. 5. Finger-pointing or countering propaganda? Shifting blame off of our shoulders? Spreading some truth?

Guest
Guest

The strum and drang in the press is inconsequential but the confusion in classrooms caused by the idiots making decisions is very bad for kids. Miles has correctly identified that the quality of instruction needs to be raised yet he defends teaching to the test which sends a contrary message. TFA faculty are there because they are content experts - not testing gurus. Prognosis for a supt. that has not figured this out is iffy at best.

April
April

Why do so many districts keep TfA on after the first two years? I'd think they'd save the money if the results aren't there. They could spend it to send more boys on a Red Tails movie field trip and rent Akeelah and the Bee for the girls to watch back on campus.

kesslerwatch
kesslerwatch

Then their entitlements need to be extended to other careers also--they can dabble in medicine, law, dog grooming (which actually requires credentials).

April
April

Yes, but no one's (except reform foes) are suggesting that entire campuses be staffed with TfA teachers. There's a place for these teachers. Many of them get the education bug and stay on beyond their two years.  

kesslerwatch
kesslerwatch

They have always been supporters and will continue to be because that is what the big money is buying. Of course, the DMN was a big fan of segregation until deseg was forced upon them. And they loved McCarthy, so they have always been right out front in terms of progressive thinking.

April
April

Do you count DMN as a TfA supporter? They weren't always supporters. I expect that results have made them change their take.

kesslerwatch
kesslerwatch

There are many shreds of evidence in peer-reviewed education journals all over the country.

And then there are Wendy manufactured results which seem to grow more grandiose each week. Kind of like Michelle Rhee's stories of her teaching prowess which seem now to be totally manufactured along with her DC results which seem to be largely the result of cheating.

Hmmm..Wendy, Michelle, April--all in need of large doses of reality.

Diane Birdwell
Diane Birdwell

Actually, there are conflicting stats. The glowing stats come from supporters of TFA..

Here is a thought: Why doesn't Mesquite hire them? Don't need to. They get quality applicants from the get-go. Soooo, it is not the teachers who are the problem in DISD, not even the students, but think about why YOU would choose to work in Mesquite rather than in DISD?

cp
cp

Yeah and all those young MBA's who were hired right out of business school in the 80's and had no experience at actual business certainly knew what they were doing, right? I mean, there's more ways to have a career in business without having to actually have worked in a business....

Anony
Anony

Just saying or should i say just spewing TFA alum...

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