Urban Myth: Claim that Federal Housing Programs Cause Crime Spikes is a Crock

Categories: Schutze

SHZ_GetOffMyLawn_TitleImageV2.jpg
Does public housing, including Section 8 vouchers that help poor people pay rent, and other "dispersal" programs, cause crime? A reader commenting on an item posted here at the end of last week cited an article published in The Atlantic magazine in 2008, called "American Murder Mystery," saying pretty much that it does.

In that piece writer Hanna Rosin cited what she said were statistical clusters in Memphis in the first decade of this century to argue that crime was spiking wherever recipients of public housing subsidies settled after being pushed out of the old public housing projects. I remember reading it when it was new and finding it pretty disturbing.

But you know 2008 was a long time ago. If you're going to reach that far back for an argument to use today, you need to keep Googling. If an argument is that old, it's important to see what has happened to it since it was born.

In fact, what you find -- easily available all over the net today -- is solid evidence from serious scholars to show that Rosin's article was bullshit magazine journalism.

hudimg.jpeg
Via.
First she finds a number of programs designed to reduce or eliminate the old post-World War II projects. She wrongly characterizes those programs as liberal attempts to socially engineer. Most of the big tear-downs of the 1970s and '80s -- Pruitt Igoe in St. Louis, West Dallas in Dallas -- were either initiated under Nixon to save money or ordered by the courts to fight deliberate segregation.

Is putting an end to deliberate segregation the same thing as dispersal? I don't know. Let's leave that one to the philosophers of language.

The big point made by scholarly critics of the Rosin piece is that she committed a typical journalistic mistake in her use of statistics by assuming that "correlation is causation."

Yes, the not-white poor generally dispersed themselves out of traditional ghettos in the first decade of this century. Yes, that included recipients of federal housing aid. Yes, crime increased in some of the areas to which they dispersed.

But Rosin failed to churn up any significant evidence that public housing dispersal had a thing to do with the crime spike. Critics of her piece seemed to be able to find persuasive evidence without too much effort that public housing recipients were a relatively minor slice of the much larger outward migration of the poor from the old ghettos.

Beginning in the 1980s, poverty in this country bounced down and then back up following a pronounced cycle of boom and then bust. Poor people moved around a lot.

We need only look to North Dallas and the inner rim of our own suburbs. Areas that were almost entirely white middle-class a decade ago are now a diverse amalgam of immigrant and American-born black and Hispanic populations with whites, presumably quite mixed in terms of class, from chronically unemployed to fully employed working class and middle class.

That kind of demographic shift is going to bring concomitant changes in social patterns, including crime. But before you can single out the smallest portion of the shift, Section 8 voucher recipients, and blame them for the most severe of social problems, crime, you have to do more work to connect the dots.

Critics have pointed out that Rosin failed to dig her way through court records to find proof that crimes committed in areas with spikes in crime rates were being committed by people receiving housing assistance. Given the relatively small proportion of Section 8 recipients in the outward migration, those recipients would have needed to commit a dramatically outsized portion of the crime to be responsible for the overall upticks cited by Rosin.

Would it be hard to find proof or disproof in criminal justice records? Oh, yeah. You bet. It would take a lot of work. But remember two things: You can get paid a few grand to write a piece like that for a national magazine. So you can afford to break a sweat.

And more important: If you're going to argue from the smallest evidence to make your biggest point, you need to connect a solid line of dots first just so you yourself can be sure you know what you're talking about and you're not just dishing up a provocative piece that will get buzz.

Anyway, the larger point here is about public housing and crime. The Atlantic piece published four years ago was no smoking gun. If anything, it was a shotgun wedding of statistics and shibboleths -- a marriage that didn't last.

Her piece was well written, and she apparently said later she was "just trying to start a conversation." I remember saying that once back during my single years. As I recall, I got slapped anyway.

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FaceTheFactsJim
FaceTheFactsJim

Hey Jim, where did you go?  Aren't you going to come back and attempt to negate all the facts with another one of your amazing brainfart 'zingers'?  Perhaps a crack about the NRA or First Baptist might work.  Oh, wait, no, that won't work.  Anyway.....

------

http://crimeblog.dallasnews*com/archives/2012/03/teen-shot-at-north-dallas-apar.html

Teen shot at North Dallas apartment in disturbance with another gang member

6:52 AM on Thu., Mar. 1, 2012

Update, 9:25 a.m. The victim was transported to Parkland Memorial Hospital and he is expected to survive, police said.

According to police, both the victim and the suspect are in a gang, but detectives believe that was not the reason for the shooting. The suspect is still at large and detectives will continue to investigate.

-----------------------------------

The police gang unit is investigating the shooting of a teenage boy outside the North Dallas apartment he shares with his mother.

Investigators suspect another teen shot the 15-year-old victim multiple times about 8:30 p.m. Wednesday in the 5500 block of Alpha Road, near Valley View Center.

The victim's mother heard the shooting and called police.

The shooter ran away and remains at large. A detailed description of the suspect was unavailable. [THAT IS A JOURNALIST'S NEWSPEAK EUPHEMISM MEANING THE SUSPECT IS NOT WHITE]

The victim, who was not identified, was taken to Parkland Memorial Hospital with serious injuries. His current condition is unknown.

==========================

More info in this article:Teen Shot at Apartment Complex

Published : Thursday, 01 Mar 2012, 

DALLAS - A 15-year-old is recovering at Parkland hospital after he was shot multiple times in an apartment complex parking lot Wednesday night.

Dallas police responded to the shooting just before 9:30 p.m. in the 5500 block of Alpha Road, near Valley View mall. They found the teen had been shot several times in the torso.

All of the suspects had fled.

The DPD Gang Unit is investigating this crime.

http://www.myfoxdfw*com/dpp/news/Teen-Shot-at-Apartment-Complex-030112#ixzz1nuDDdAkW

===========

This gang shooting happened at the Dallas North Apartments , 5557 Alpha Rd.

SURPRISE SURPRISE SURPRISE, Jim!!!!  The "Dallas North Apartments" are a "low income housing project"!  I'm sure you are totally shocked to find that out.

http://lihtc.findthedata*org/q/27309/2407/Is-Dallas-North-Apartments-a-low-income-housing-project

"Dallas North Apartments is a low income housing project"

Total Number of Low-Income Units: 206

------------------------------

Guest
Guest

Boy, you fit the profile perfectly of a right-wing nut-job!!! 

WhereDidYouGoJim
WhereDidYouGoJim

Hey Jim, where did you go?  Aren't you going to come back and attempt to negate all the facts with another one of your amazing brainfart 'zingers'?  Perhaps a crack about the NRA or First Baptist might work.  Oh, wait, no, that won't work.  Anyway.....

------

http://crimeblog.dallasnews*com/archives/2012/03/teen-shot-at-north-dallas-apar.html

Teen shot at North Dallas apartment in disturbance with another gang member

6:52 AM on Thu., Mar. 1, 2012

Update, 9:25 a.m. The victim was transported to Parkland Memorial Hospital and he is expected to survive, police said.

According to police, both the victim and the suspect are in a gang, but detectives believe that was not the reason for the shooting. The suspect is still at large and detectives will continue to investigate.

-----------------------------------

The police gang unit is investigating the shooting of a teenage boy outside the North Dallas apartment he shares with his mother.

Investigators suspect another teen shot the 15-year-old victim multiple times about 8:30 p.m. Wednesday in the 5500 block of Alpha Road, near Valley View Center.

The victim's mother heard the shooting and called police.

The shooter ran away and remains at large. A detailed description of the suspect was unavailable. [THAT IS A JOURNALIST'S NEWSPEAK EUPHEMISM MEANING THE SUSPECT IS NOT WHITE]

The victim, who was not identified, was taken to Parkland Memorial Hospital with serious injuries. His current condition is unknown.

==========================

More info in this article:Teen Shot at Apartment Complex

Published : Thursday, 01 Mar 2012, 

DALLAS - A 15-year-old is recovering at Parkland hospital after he was shot multiple times in an apartment complex parking lot Wednesday night.

Dallas police responded to the shooting just before 9:30 p.m. in the 5500 block of Alpha Road, near Valley View mall. They found the teen had been shot several times in the torso.

All of the suspects had fled.

The DPD Gang Unit is investigating this crime.

http://www.myfoxdfw*com/dpp/news/Teen-Shot-at-Apartment-Complex-030112#ixzz1nuDDdAkW

===========

This gang shooting happened at the Dallas North Apartments , 5557 Alpha Rd.

SURPRISE SURPRISE SURPRISE, Jim!!!!  The "Dallas North Apartments" are a "low income housing project"!  I'm sure you are totally shocked to find that out.

http://lihtc.findthedata*org/q/27309/2407/Is-Dallas-North-Apartments-a-low-income-housing-project

"Dallas North Apartments is a low income housing project"

Total Number of Low-Income Units: 206

------------------------------

OhTheIronyJim
OhTheIronyJim

HEY JIM!!! Where did you go?

I seem to recall something that you wrote about "bullshit journalism"', and something else about "easily available all over the net today".

WhereDidYouGoJim
WhereDidYouGoJim

WHERE DID YOU GO, JIM????

http://crimeblog.dallasnews*com/archives/2012/02/dallas-police-investigate-deat-1.html

Dallas police investigate stabbing death of man found in his Lake Highlands apartment

Feb. 29, 2012

Dallas police are investigating the stabbing death of a man found in his Lake Highlands apartment Tuesday morning.

Officers received a call about 11 a.m. and found William Dale Martin dead in his home at the Arbors Apartments, 11201 E. Lake Highlands Drive, according to Senior Cpl. Sherri Jeffrey, a Dallas police spokeswoman.

Martin, 52, suffered "multiple sharp force injuries of the head, neck and upper extremities," according to the Dallas County medical examiner's office.

Jeffrey said property was stolen from the apartment, so robbery is a possible motive.

Police have not named a suspect or made any arrests.

===================

http://www.showmetherent.rentlinx*com/Property.aspx?PropertyID=73709

DetailsAddress : 11201 E. Lake Highlands Dr., Dallas, TX 75218

Managed by : The Arbors/Casa Serena

School District : Dallas Independent School District

Property Type : Apartments (356 units)

Waitlist : N/A

Section 8 Accepted : Yes

Get real Jim
Get real Jim

Hey Jim, where did you go?  

What's been happening in the Section 8 ghetto near Richland College lately, Jim?

http://spotcrime*com/crime/16178233-83ab0f7d48af25f79814844cf7147ff9Assault - 124XX ABRAMS RD, DALLAS, 75243, TX - 02/28/2011 10:57 PM

02/28/2011 10:57 PM. ASSAULT F/V M/A STRANGULATION SUSP CHOKED AND STRUCK COMP WITH A POWER CORD CAUSING PAIN Premises:503 - APARTMENT R Case number: 0050955-Y.-------------------

What's been happening in the Section 8 ghetto near Forest and Audelia lately, Jim?

http://spotcrime*com/crime/16177688-fda2dfb30dc202a23bfe85ba836f9212

Assault - 99XX ADLETA BLVD, DALLAS, 75243, TX - 02/28/2011 08:07 AM

02/28/2011 08:07 AM. AGG ASSAULT W/DEADLY F/V KNOWN SUSP STABBED COMP IN THE FACE WITH A KNIFE Premises:503 - APARTMENT Case number: 0050244-Y.

J. Erik Jonsson
J. Erik Jonsson

Federal housing funding certainly causes a crime spike of the public-officials-on-the-take variety.  We'd need a whole lot fewer prosecutors if it weren't for public funding of housing.

Guest
Guest

Well Said. And an absolute truth. I think nationally, its served as one of, if not the largest bucket to steal from............by politico's.............time for a major overhaul.......

Mike
Mike

Could the causation/correlation be in why apartments become Section 8 units? It is a decision by the owner likely based on trends in the neighborhood. Consequently it is a symptom of what are likely the real causes for spikes in crime. Symptoms however can drive actions by observers. As noted in the old Bill Cosby routine on two bulls discussing the anthrax epidemic, whatever the real reasons, you better wipe that foam off your mouth if you do not want people to think you have a problem.

Get real Jim
Get real Jim

What's happening in Lake Highlands apartments lately, Jim?

http://dallas.everyblock*com/crime-reports/feb25-agg-assault-886540/

Aggravated assault posted to 12400 block of ABRAMS RD

Agg Assault

Offense dateFebruary 25, 2012Incident categoryAggravated assaultIncidentAGG ASSAULT - ADULT B/M - KNIFE/CUTTING/STAB INSTRUMENT - 1800-0600Secondary incident categoryNONESecondary incidentNONEService number0045839-ZOffense time1:18 a.m.Beat253Premises503 - APARTMENTDescriptionAGG ASSAULTMethodKNOWN SUSPECT USED A KNIFE TO INJURE COMP.---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

http://dallas.everyblock*com/crime-reports/feb20-robbery-carjacking-881637/

Robbery posted to 12400 block of ABRAMS RD

Robbery (Carjacking)

Offense dateFebruary 20, 2012Incident categoryRobberyIncidentROBBERY - CARJACK-INDIV - HANDS/FISTS/FEET/BODILY FORCE - 1800-0600Secondary incident categoryNONESecondary incidentNONEService number0042218-ZOffense time1:08 a.m.Beat253PremisesAPT PARKING LOTDescriptionROBBERY (CARJACKING)MethodSUSPECT FORCED COMP OUT OF HER VEH AND THEN FLED SCENE IN VEH.--------------------------------------------------------------------

http://dallas.everyblock*com/crime-reports/feb10-sexual-assault-872817/

Rape posted to 12400 block of ABRAMS RD

Sexual Assault

Added Feb 11 2012

Offense dateFebruary 10, 2012Incident categoryRapeIncidentRAPE - ADULT B/F - HANDS/FISTS/FEET/BODILY FORCE - 0600-1800Secondary incident categoryNONESecondary incidentNONEService number0033869-ZOffense time2:21 p.m.Beat253Premises503 - APARTMENT RDescriptionSEXUAL ASSAULTMethodSUSPECT PENETRATED COMP'S VAGINA WITH HIS PENIS WITHOUT CONSENT

Guest
Guest

Your just a flat out idiot! 

GetrealJim
GetrealJim

Like, wow man, your 'flat out idiot' comment totally negated all those facts that you would prefer to ignore!

Oh wait, no it didn't.

Try again and use facts and logic next time.

GetrealJim
GetrealJim

I already did, over and over and over. It is not my fault that you aren't smart enough to understand what you read. Perhaps take a reading comprehension class. You can probably find time to do it in between calling me an idiot. You're welcome ;)

Guest
Guest

Show a concrete link between crime and Section 8 and then I will expend time on this, you idiot. 

Get real Jim
Get real Jim

Hey Jim, what's happening in Lake Highlands since all that Section 8 went in?

Police Report here:http://policereports.dallaspolice*net/publicreports/ReportOutput/488858675.pdf

http://lakehighlands.advocatemag*com/2012/02/gang-fight-leaves-two-injured/

February 20th, 2012Gang fight leaves two injured

Two people went to the hospital Friday night with stab wounds after a fight broke out at the Lake Highlands North rec center. Police say it is gang related.

It all started at a 16th birthday party at the Lake Highlands North recreation center. The police report names three gangs involved — one called Goon Squad and the other North Side Goons, and a third TYN (the youth sect of the NSG gang).

According to police reports: a fight broke out involving three black females from rival gangs. Other partygoers jumped in. Police arrived at the scene a little after 11 p.m. after those involved called 9-1-1 from a nearby home (where one of the witnesses lives), but not before two people were stabbed.

It appears, based on the reports, that one of the victims was 25-year-old black male Keneth Mims — after being treated by paramedics at the scene he drove himself to Presbyterian hospital. The name of the other stabbing victim is not released because of age — this person, who reportedly is affiliated with the TYN gang [GUESS WHAT THE "N" STANDS FOR JIM], was transported to Baylor with a deep back wound.  The report indicates that the underage stabbing victim walked away from the scene to call 9-1-1, so he/she, at least initially, was not too injured to walk, perhaps. Also, no deaths have been reported.

According to the report, the gang unit was notified and is investigating.

Posted by: Christina Hughes Babb on February 20th, 2012

========

from the comments there:

"There was trouble brewing in those apartments west of the DART tracks and south of Church on Friday after school.   A huge number of boys and girls were moving in a rather angry mob along Church and into the apartments.  As I watched two patrol cars arrived and the kids scattered thru the apartment complex, regrouped and headed north on Skillman.  I was certainly glad they were not heading into my neighborhood .  I left wondering what we, as a community,  could do to redirect all that energy into something constructive."

--

"Is there any connection with these gangs of kids at LH and Andrew Green's hit and run?  There have been "rumors" at LHHS for weeks now about some gang involvement and an argument he had with someone in one of the gangs mentioned in this story and some kids are saying the goon squad might have had somehting to do with Andrew being killed"

===

"Does anybody want to guess which "side of the tracks" these kids live?  These are not homeowner's kids.  This stuff is coming out of the apartments.  LH has a definete image problem.  Is it any wonder a business from the outside does not want to invest here?  Those of us that own homes here know what a great place it can be. But do you ever look at LH from an outsider's perspective?  If you were a potential developer driving from the new Timbercreek area south, down Skillman into LH, what do you see? First, you drive by the run down liquor stores and cash advance stores, the empty gas stations.  Then, you are face to face with two boarded up, beat up, and now grafiti covered apartment complexes (what is up with those properties anyway?).  You take your smart phone out and google, and now see the headlines for gang activity....lovely.  Would you bring your business here? At some point, we have to figure out how take back our neighborhood.  Any suggestions?  How about our city councilman?  Where is he?  How come we never here anything from him?"

MattL1
MattL1

The primary cause of crime in any city is the presence of criminals.  Also, the lack of signature bridges plays a significant role.  Beyond that, it's a mystery...

GetoutofyourbubbleJim
GetoutofyourbubbleJim

Here you go, Jim!   Section 8 in Plano!  The "Garden Gate Apartments"!

http://www.gosection8*com/Section-8-housing-in-PLANO-TX/2-bedroom-1-bathroom-rental-Apt/3970569

Let's check out the tenant reviews!!!-------------

http://www.apartmentratings*com/rate/TX-Plano-Garden-Gate-Apartments-1222497.html

Horriblee!!!!!

From: -Anonymous- Date posted: 3/16/2011 Years at this apartment: 2011-01-01 - 2011-01-01

OMG... these apartments might as well be projects. the first day i moved here my apartment wasnt even ready. the carpet was terribly stained and roaches were all over the place. i had to delay my move for two days because THEY were off schedule. when i finally did move in the tub surfacing started falling apart after using it for a week. there are always a BUNCH OF KIDS AND ADULTS hanging out all night and the adult men walk the apartments hangin out IN THE MIDDLE OF THE DAY!!!!! yes, NO JOBS> but the reason why is because most of these people are on SEC 8 (free govt housing)!!! my stove had to get fixed, my tub has fell apart twice now, the roaches have lived here longer than me and even with the exterminater on mondays, they show no sign of leaving. its filty!!! drugs are all over the place. i see the police EVERYDAY... my refrigerator has air leaks in it so my electricity bill is way over the top (and yes i have complained of all of this stuff)....brenda and tammy both stay here and act like they dont know whats going on in these apartments. some bummy looking kid tried to approch me and i rejected him. why did i do this!! now when i see the kid, he is calling me ------- and hoes.. wow!! and he is not on anybody's lease. this apartment truly sucks and i WILL NOT be renewing my lease in august!!!!... this was the biggest mistake ever.... DONT MOVE HERE!!!!!!!!

----------------------------------

http://www.apartmentratings*com/rate/TX-Plano-Garden-Gate-Apartments-1209334.html#ixzz1ne7Zta33

From: -Anonymous- Date posted: 2/17/2011 Years at this apartment: 2009-01-01 - 2011-01-01

These apartments are the hood. The children are disrespectful, the people who live here are loud and obnoxious. No matter how much you complain they won't do anything. Kids break into cars and lately they have been breaking into apartments as well. The place is infested with roaches. They claim they spray on Mondays, but that is a lie because I have taken off three Mondays in a row and no one has even attempted to spray my apartment. The rent is low, but you get what you pay for!! Literally!! I wouldn't recommend these to anyone. When I first moved in they were okay, but now they have gone down the toilet!!!!!

-----------Moved Here From Out Of Town!

From: -Anonymous- Date posted: 1/31/2011 Years at this apartment: 2011-01-01 - 2011-01-01

This place is GHETTO! It seem so quite and nice but ...grown men hang around all day walking back and fourth looking into your apartment. Our first night here a group of kids and adult's started had a brawl. Nobody called the cops except me!! After a long day of work I come home to see a group of atlease 8-14 people standing by the stairs looking me up and down?! Perv's work around daily my son stop going outside now. I'm from out of state I got this apt online.....big mistake!! Tammy, Marcellus and Brenda don't care about these apts! They seem nice but just as fonny. I have called these people plenty of times about the groups of people standing around my door NOTHING IS BEING DONE. Everyone is so clicked up here you get into it with one then you have to deal with them all!.. I can't wait until my least is up from this LOW INCOME ----. Plano is really nice but Garden Gate is nothing but a damn GHETTO!! Drugs heads, Teens, adults and perv's make this place a living nightmare! The apartments are so damn cheap, touch the paint it's going to smear, carpet is old and it's out dated. Walkthoughs outside is dirty trash, black mold and old bubble gum lives right outside my door. Don't take my word for it just move here!! you'll see!!

http://www.apartmentratings*com/rate/TX-Plano-Garden-Gate-Apartments-1200610.html#ixzz1ne7ypgFO

============CRIME!

From: -Anonymous- Date posted: 6/30/2004 Years at this apartment: 2003-01-01 - 2004-01-01

Avoid this place! Crime, Crime, Crime.

http://www.apartmentratings*com/rate/TX-Plano-Garden-Gate-Apartments-240277.html#ixzz1neAB2b1X

==========Awful!!!!

From: missygilbert Date posted: 5/15/2006 Years at this apartment: 2003-01-01 - 2006-01-01

I agree with Anonymous. The neighborhood has gone bad. I can't wait for my lease to be up. There are people hanging out at all hours of the night and kids making all kids of noise. There has been fighting where cops has to come in and there has even been police chase inside the complex where guns are fired and people fighting with weapons.

http://www.apartmentratings*com/rate/TX-Plano-Garden-Gate-Apartments-453191.html#ixzz1neAMDaTY

======

etc. etc. etc.....

GetoutofyourbubbleJim
GetoutofyourbubbleJim

Today's SpotCrime map shows two assaults at Section 8 apartment complexes near Frankford and Marsh Lane:

http://spotcrime*com/crime/27299673-e15c899284a6b63f99a0c6bc586b697d

Assault - 36XX FRANKFORD RD, DALLAS, TX - 02/26/2012 04:14 PM

02/26/2012 04:14 PM. ASSAULT STRANGULATION F/V SUSP CHOKED THE COMP CAUSING PAIN AND LOSS OF BREATHE Premises:APARTMENT Case number: 0047122-Z.

--------

Assault - 26XX FRANKFORD RD, DALLAS, 75287, TX - 02/26/2012 11:12 AM

02/26/2012 11:12 AM. ASSAULT F/V STRANGULATION SUSP SQUEEZED COMP'S NECK BLOCKING AIRWAY AND HIT COMP ON HEAD Premises:503 - APARTMENT R Case number: 0046915-Z.

http://spotcrime*com/crime/27299367-3b140115d5fa5c7bf77a4c144724346a

Getoutmore
Getoutmore

The tenant reviews of the Section 8 apartments at "The Fountains of Rosemeade" are quite entertaining.

http://www.apartmentratings*com/rate/TX-Carrollton-Fountains-of-Rosemeade.htmlFountains of Rosemeade

3440 Rosemeade Parkway, Carrollton, TX 75007

God Bless Us

From: -Anonymous- Date posted: 10/20/2011 Years at this apartment: 2008-01-01 - 2011-01-01

 "I HATE IT HERE!!!! These apt. are ghetto when my lease is up i have to go the mgr dont do anything when you complain people hangout in the breeze way all night and sometime in the day i am black and have section8 and can understand why other races stereo type on black and Hispanic low income people the mgr act like she is afraid of the people who cause the problem she just says call police they want do anything but drive by the resident unless there is a fight and still nothing people pray for me and my family that we can break my lease been here 3 years to long"

======

Messy PPL

From: -Anonymous- Date posted: 10/23/2011 Years at this apartment: 2011-01-01 - 2011-01-01

"This place is so ghetto! I moved to Dallas Texas from another state.The children here are so messy..they keep trouble ..the best bet is to let your kids stay in the house.then the thugs peep out what you take in your home...break-in cars and apts.This place is not safe..u always have to keep one eye open and one eye open.I am so afraid to sit on my balcony because the thugs mean mug you like you are 5.O. I am so disappointed paying all this rent...your kids wont be happy with their living arrangement because soon as they have a friend the friend lies..and keep drama up...Maintenance is bad..I been here over 6 months and window has not been fixed yet.And there are pediphiles out here..Oh my..wish I could get out my lease but got til April...Wish I could just move..For Real!!Grown ppl will attack your child out here..I have experienced it..but was to scared to report...Not Safe!!"

---------

DON'T MOVE HERE!!!!

From: -Anonymous- Date posted: 6/7/2011 Years at this apartment: 2010-01-01 - 2011-01-01

 

"I moved here in August of 2010 and it has been hell ever since. I absolutely hate it here and can not wait to move when my lease is up in august. First of all, the parking is awful there is nowhere to park at anytime of the day. Its like people don't have jobs here (which most probably don't). Secondly I use to take my son (2yrs old) out to the playground during the summer to play. We would go out there and I would see little kids running around like 3 years old by themselves with no supervision. I soon would hear the kids talking outside and the language they used was disgusting at any age but these kids are like 5 and 6. They would also run around tearing the screens off the windows and tear them apart using the metal as swords. The slide has all kinds of obsenities written on it. Thirdly there are people selling drugs in every stairwell in all the buildings. Trash never gets put in the dumpster and it is blown all over the complex. Cops are there at least once a week and maybe more but I work alot so I am not always there. The FINAL and WORST thing I HATE about these apartments are the roaches that are infested everywhere. YUCK!!!! It is completely disgusting no matter what you do, how much you clean and spray for the roaches they never leave. I can't wait to get out of here and will never recommend these apartments to anyone. The worst apartment I have ever been in. Stay far far away from here."

-----------

Holy Shxt

From: -Anonymous- Date posted: 4/18/2006 Years at this apartment: 2005-01-01 - 2006-01-01

"Holy hell this was without a doubt the worst place to live. My fiancee and I lived there back in 2006, and we have been wanting to vent about Fountains. We couldn't wait to get the frak out of there. The staff is garbage especially the property manager. Then we find out about the section 8. We thought it was the ghetto before, well it got worse. Guns going off every night, police having to come through, saw a ghetto rat doing something dirty in the pool one night. That turned me off swimming for the remainder of the summer. It's all the leftover Katrina garbage and the nasty welfare moms, who are too lazy to do anything. The poor maintainence guys are completely overshadowed by the whores in the office."

-------------------

Welcome To Section 8!!!

From: juliaenichols Date posted: 11/30/2007 Years at this apartment: 2003-01-01 - 2004-01-01

"I lived here in 03-04 and WOW, let me tell you! We visited the area and it looked SO nice, the apartments used to be beautiful and the inside is nice as well.... but... the truth is, its luxury apartments for low income families so its the ghetto. I could never do wash, jog, or ANYTHING at night. Men would follow me and my sister and you could just feel eyes watching you. My sister and I sat on our balcony several times at night with our lights off and just watched drug deals go down in the middle of the park. We also saw a man walk across the park Butt NAKED twice; two different occassions...The WORST part is that our neighbor supposedly "moved out" according to the staff. NO! We got a letter on our door about a shooting that just so happened to occur on a night I CALLED the Cops. The cops told me it was probably just firecrackers, since that's all these people do in the middle of the night, yes even in the winter... The letter basically said there was a shooting but not to worry because the tenant was no longer living on the premises. My mom works in the ER at Baylor and she asked the cops about the shooting and you wanna know why the tenant (my NEIGHBOR!) no longer lives there... Because he was shot and killed!The gates are always jammed from people ramming into the gates with their cars. Me and my sister tried desperately to get out of our lease but couldn't so we moved out and continued to pay our rent there because it just wasn't worth it or safe. It Always smells like weed there, adults use the most inappropriate language in the park where children are everywhere, and its just plain not worth it!!! Do NOT Move Here!!"

========

Its Worthless

From: -Anonymous- Date posted: 3/17/2008 Years at this apartment: 2007-01-01 - 2008-01-01

 

"i currently live here and its the worst place i think i have ever lived! i would rather move back in with my parents or anyhing to break my lease and get the hell out of here! its a scarry place to live. all the things that i have seen go on from outside my window at night. the police come through almost hourly at night but that doesnt stop all the crime. people are constantley heald up at gun pointe. i wish someone would of warned me before i mvoed myself and my small child into here. the children that live there are rude and disrespectful. they cuss at you when you are walking to check your mail. i wish there was some way to get out of the hell hole"

==============

Etc. etc. etc.   Go read the 46 reviews there, they are almost all completely negative, most mention how "ghetto" the area has become since Section 8 moved in.

Crap Detector
Crap Detector

Anyone looked at Cabrini Green in Chicago? Might be an interesting study...

RTGolden
RTGolden

I'm not well-read in the statistical probabilities of section 8 voucher recipients.  This comment will not be based in any kind of scientific fact or empirical evidence.

I'm not poor, but i'm a paycheck away from soup kitchens most of the time.  I tend to live in rough apartment complexes because the rent is cheap.  Rosemeade Courts (since renamed, but still hellish) is one of the places, along with some moderately horrible complexes on John West Rd.  These are not subsidized housing, but low-income.  Crime was pretty much commonplace and expected.  However, I never had my truck broken into, or even damaged, and I myself was pretty much left alone.  Most of the crime in these places was specific, and by that I mean, the person having the crime being done to them was usually doing something criminal themselves and got out-crimed.  I did have one drunk guy, presumably after having stepped out on his wife or girlfriend try to break into my window one night.  With some help from Sturm Ruger & Co., he was convinced that he did not live in my apartment, nor did he want to enter it uninvited.  I think he thought he was sneaking into his own apartment, but he got the wrong building.

However, my boss, who lives in a very well-to-do neighborhood, has the constant worry of his vehicles or house being broken into or stolen. It is rampant in Dallas' nicer neighborhoods.  The most recent popularly stolen items are tailgates from Ford F-150's and back seats from SUV's. There are no section 8 voucher-holding individuals residing in his neighborhood.

My take on this is simple.  In the poor apartments and neighborhoods I've lived in, and am currently living in, it's easy to pick out who the good guys and the bad guys are.  The good guys come home from work, bullshit with the neighbors for a bit and go inside with the family.  The bad guys are home all day, have a flurry of cars in and out at all hours of the night, and, for some inexplicable reason try to hide cheap video cameras in dead trees.

In the more affluent neighborhoods, where you feel safer, because the people are more similar to what you see in the mirror every morning, who do you trust?  Who are the good and bad guys?  Is DART bringing tailgate thieves into Preston Hollow at night?

Linking crime to rich/poor, working/welfare, or black/brown/white/yellow/red/fuschia whatever seems pretty tenuous to me.  I'd guess anytime you have a situation where one person has something another person thinks they want, you have a potential for crime.  Last time I checked envy, greed, lust, pride, sloth, gluttony and wrath were equal opportunity vices.

Guest
Guest

"Last time I checked envy, greed, lust, pride, sloth, gluttony and wrath were equal opportunity vices." 

Exactly!!! So when we intentionally segregate and create haves and have-nots, more likely for the have-nots to steal from the haves. So lets not intentionally segregate and give everyone the opportunity they deserve, so they don't feel resentment, and aren't segregated in the hood and feeling desperate to commit such acts. 

Not going to solve world hunger, but a damn good start and the right path for society as a whole. Gives everyone a sense of fairness and equality. 

Downtown Resident
Downtown Resident

If I read your anecdote correctly, F-150 tailgates are getting boosted in Preston Hollow and the most likely culprit is the soccer mom down the street because criminals don't have adequate transportation?

Doug
Doug

My experience as a landlord, previously owning property in Pleasant Grove, was that it wasn't the Section 8 tenents causing the trouble in the complex where I once owned, they were desirable because they had an economic incentive to keep in line. At risk youth, turned drug peddlers, who had very loose rental arrangements (if any, some subletted with others) seemed to be the largest contributor of the crime problem in the complex.

Guest
Guest

"At risk youth, turned drug peddlers, who had very loose rental arrangements (if any, some subletted with others) seemed to be the largest contributor of the crime problem in the complex."

Another reason we have to stop intentionally segregating black people, so these black kids have an opportunity to live in decent areas, good schools and being around other people working hard to be good productive citizens. 

This is what living in "higher opportunity areas" is all about. 

JBone
JBone

"This is what living in "higher opportunity areas" is all about. "

Yes, we are all products of our environment, so kids need areas of opportunity. 

DISD Teacher
DISD Teacher

Based on what I see in DISD, I'd say that crime leads to Section 8.

We have lots of parents either in jail or fresh out of jail and unemployable.

We also have droves of parents involved with drugs, which sooner or later could result in jail time.

Being here illegally is considered a crime, so it results in a limit to earning power for parents.

Usually the mom stays out of jail but qualifies for Section 8 and a multitude of other services.

It's sad all the way around.

Mike3647
Mike3647

Maybe it's the people visiting section 8, but when a complex in my neighborhood left sec 8 crime went way down.  Clearly and positively, regardless of statistics, surveys or other BS.

KoeniginLuisevonPreussen
KoeniginLuisevonPreussen

JimS, 

Congratulations, you've proven that correlation != causation and that the magazine article failed to prove its case.

Now, let's consider what we do actually know.

First, the presence of Section 8 recipients and crime is in fact correlated, even though the arrow of causation is still unproven.

Second, most people place a very high priority on not becoming victims of crime.

Third, avoiding crime victimization is a challenging thing, especially in a vibrantly diverse metro area, involving a lot of probabilistic deductions from imperfect information.    No one is able to do peer-reviewed studies on every crime-avoiding life decision, from "where to buy a house" to "should I cross the street now"?    It's almost all based on educated guesses, and the penalty for guessing wrong is severe.

Fourth, lots of other things are correlated with crime.   For example:  young men wearing their trousers around their ankles.  Single motherhood.   Cars with enormous oversized rims.   "Bad schools."     Still not saying anything about the arrow of causality here.

Conclusion:  If you are a person looking to avoid becoming a victim of crime, and all you know about a particular neighborhood is "lots of Section 8 here," does that make you more likely, less likely or neither to move to that neighborhood?   Answer: less likely, because the causality doesn't matter to you at all. All you need is the correlation, and you have a solid reason to downgrade that particular neighborhood. 

JimS
JimS

No,sorry. You state: "First, the presence of Section 8 recipients and crime is in fact correlated, even though the arrow of causation is still unproven." You are in effect saying, correlation does equal causation, but correlation does equal causation." It's a logic error. You commit the same error when you say: "lots of other things are correlated with crime.   For example:  young men wearing their trousers around their ankles.  Single motherhood.   Cars with enormous oversized rims.   "Bad schools."     Still not saying anything about the arrow of causality here."Of course you are saying something about "arrow of causality." You are pointing it. But you want to say you're not pointing it, because you're trying to shirk responsibility for the implicatons of what you are saying.Big rims, sagging pants, unwed mothers: you think black people are the cause of crime. But you want to say it out the side of your mouth so you won;t get jumped on.

KoeniginLuisevonPreussen
KoeniginLuisevonPreussen

JimS,  I credit you for responding to your anonymous internet commenters when very few journalists would do so.     However, I believe your misunderstanding of my post is so complete that I'm not going to bother to respond.

You should be happy that tenant groups, supported by the media, are fighting to make Sunnyvale TX friendly for apartments, renters, and Section 8, flying the noble flag of racial and social justice.   I'm sure that this will have no effect at all on crime, property values or the social fabric of Sunnyvale.    Your side also controls the federal bureaucracy and the federal judiciary, and the demographic trends are in your favor, so enjoy your victory.

DC
DC

"Your side also controls the federal bureaucracy and the federal judiciary, and the demographic trends are in your favor, so enjoy your victory."

Oh, he (we) will! Bitter sweet, but nothing more or less than TRUE JUSTICE! Its what happens when you have truth and justice on "your side." 

Getoutmore
Getoutmore

Why should anyone "get jumped on" for stating the indisputable truth?

GetrealJim
GetrealJim

Really? Then how do you explain the condition and behavior of people in pre-colonial Africa? Who was discriminating against them? Or do you think it was all a wonderful noble savage utopia there before evil whitey came?

Guest
Guest

Its because blacks have been discriminated against for the past 200 years, you idiot!!! Yeah, there is a direct correlation. That is why Civil Rights Laws were created, so we can start correcting the damage. We have a long way to go, evidenced by Dallas' segregation issue. 

Getoutmore
Getoutmore

Also, blacks make up only 6.8% of Seattle, but fully half of all annual homicides in Seattle (for the last 4 years at least) have been committed by blacks.

If you don't believe me, I can prove it with exhausting detail.

Getoutmore
Getoutmore

http://www.seattlepi*com/local/article/List-of-2011-homicides-in-Seattle-2433596.php#photo-1116024

List of 2011 homicides in Seattle

City's homicide rate on 1950s pace

By CASEY MCNERTHNEY

Monday, January 2, 2012

...

"By comparison, the similarly sized cities of Baltimore had 196 homicides through December 30 and Boston had 62 – dozens more than Seattle. Even the far smaller city of Minneapolis had 31 homicides through early November."

=================================

IN COMPARISON WITH SEATTLE:

Baltimore:  62.1% blackBoston: 21.7% blackMinneapolis: 16% blackSeattle: 6.8% black

Getoutmore
Getoutmore

According to city-data dot com Atlanta’s population is 519145. On Average, there are about 149 murders per year in Atlanta (4.5 times the national average).

Atlanta murders, year-by-year, from city-data dot com:

1999 - 143.  2000 - 134.  2001 - 144.  2002 - 152.  2003 - 149.  2004 - 112.  2005 - 90.  2006 - 110.  2007 - 129.  2008 - 105.  2009 - 80.

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Let’s check out Portland, OR with a population of 550396. Portland, with a population over 31,251 more than Atlanta, has about 27 murders on average.

Portland murders, year-by-year, from city-data dot com.

1999 - 35.  2000 - 19.  2001- 21.  2002 - 20.  2003 - 27.  2004 - 29.  2005 - 20. 2006 - 20.  2007 - 22.  2008 - 26.  2009 - 19.

-------------

Portland and Atlanta demographics compared:

Portland = 76% white, only about 7% black

Atlanta = 31% white, 61% black.

Getoutmore
Getoutmore

Detroit MI compared to Pittsburgh PA - all data from city-data*com

Detroit - 75.7% black, 13.1% white.

Pittsburgh - 65% white, 26.2% black.

Murder and rape rates per 100,000 :

Detroit murder rate per 100,000, year by year:1999 -  42.6.   2000 - 40.7.   2001 - 41.3.   2002 - 41.8.   2003 - 39.4.  2004 - 42.1.  2005 - 39.3.  2006 - 47.3.  2007 - 45.8.  2008 - 33.8.  2009 - 40.2.

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Detroit rape rate per 100,000 - year by year:1999 -  81.   2000 - 83.4.   2001 - 68.2.   2002 - 73.6.   2003 - 87.7.  2004 - 78.6.  2005 - 65.4.  2006 - 67.  2007 - 39.6.  2008 - 36.4.  2009 - 36.9.    (How interesting that the rate dramatically falls right around the time of the popularization of the black "no snitching" code.)

------------

Pittsburgh murder rate per 100,000 - year by year:1999 -  14.1.   2000 - 10.5.   2001 - 16.1.   2002 - 13.7.   2003 - 20.  2004 - 13.8.  2005 - 19.  2006 - 17.3.  2007 - 16.7.  2008 - 23.2.  2009 - 12.5.

Pittsburgh rape rate per 100,000 - year by year:1999 -  39.8   2000 - 36.4.   2001 - 39.2.   2002 - 43.2.   2003 - 40.6.  2004 - 29.6.  2005 - 35.4.  2006 - 31.4.  2007 - 41.3.  2008 - 43.9.  2009 - 37.2.

Getoutmore
Getoutmore

At least 63% of all homicides in Dallas are committed by blacks and latinos (probably even more than that).

http://www.dallascityhall*com/committee_briefings/briefings0109/PS_homicideReport_01052009.pdf

Homicides in Dallas Texas - 2008

Race of Suspect - # of Homicides - PercentageWhite - 9 = 6%Black - 72 = 47%Hispanic - 24 = 16%Unknown - 49 = 32%

Therefore, even if the every single one of the 49 "unknown" murderers were whites, the "known" black murderers would still outnumber them!!!!! 

To really put it in the proper perspective:

http://www.city-data*com/city/Dallas-Texas.html

Dallas Population Racial Data:

Hispanic - 547,781 (44.6%)White - 355,922 (29.0%)Black - 274,087 (22.3%)

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GetrealJim
GetrealJim

If Jim or some other liberal journalist wrote an article about those men, do you think they would be referred to as "white men"? Or do they qualify as being "people of color" to a typical white liberal journalist?

Queen for a Day
Queen for a Day

That's likely because "hispanic" is NOT considered a race, but an "ethnicity".

GetrealJim
GetrealJim

New York Times NYC interactive homicide map!

http://projects.nytimes*com/crime/homicides/map

Blacks - 61% of the killers, 60% of the victims.Hispanics - 29% of the killers, 27% of the victims.Whites - 7% of the killers, 8% of the victims.Asians - 3% of the killers, 3% of victims.

Racial demographics of NYC from city-data dot com:

White alone - 2,961,851 (35.3%)Hispanic - 2,315,041 (27.6%)Black alone - 1,931,723 (23.0%)Asian alone - 998,081 (11.9%)

GetrealJim
GetrealJim

Oh, South Dakota's "white" rape rate.

Jim, are you even aware of the fact that the USDOJ, FBI, and most state and local law enforcement agencies consider brown Mexican/Latino Mestizos to be "white" when they are Offenders, but not when they are "Victims"?

Jim, go look at  South Dakota's Sex Offender Registry.

Look up a "Spanish" last name, like Martinez.

How about "Santana Gerardo Martinez", supposed white male born on 8/16/1985?Does he look "white" to you?  If you wrote an article about him, would you call him a "white man"?

Or "Rick Alan Martinez", supposed white male born on 9/8/1987.  Does he look "white" to you?  If he was an illegal alien and getting deported and you or some other Dallas Observer journalist was writing a story about him, the terms "people of color" or "person of color" would be very likely to appear in the article.

How about "Ignacio Aguilar"?  He is a supposedly "white" man born on 3/22/1977.Jim, If he was an illegal alien and being deported, and you wrote an article about him, would you consider him to be a "white man"?

What about "Joseph Ramon Gonzalez", DOB 6/18/1956, who sexually assaulted a 7 year old girl?  Is he "white" to you?

How about Texas, where all the rednecks live? 

Search by any zip code you choose and click on a sex offender with a Spanish "Mexican" name, and look at his photo, and compare it with his racial classification. Under the "Race" category they are classified as being "White".

According to the South Dakota and Texas sex offender registries, a whole bunch of the people classified as "white" sex offenders are not even really white at all!   According to the Texas registry, at least half of the "whites" aren't white!    This unfair and inaccurate classification of non-white, brown, "people of color" as being "white" wrongly inflates the "white crime rate", especially "white sex offender rate" FAR HIGHER than it actually is in reality.

Were you even aware of any of that, Jim?

JimS
JimS

Plus, your numbers are bullshit. According to the Census,the states with the lowest rates per 100,000 population for forcible rape, forexample, are New Jersey, at 12, and New York at 13.2

West Virginia comes in at twice that rate with at 28.4rapes.

If you want to look at a really white state, check out SouthDakota with a rape rate of 59.5.

Next time you’re looking for numbers, try looking somewhereother than your own posterior.

·        http://www.census.gov/compendi...

 

JimS
JimS

Yes, but what is the crime rate among poor West Virginia whites who live in areas of highly concentrated poverty.

Getrealjim
Getrealjim

First of all, it is really lame how you try to block me, since you can't use facts and logic to argue against the facts the I post. Lame, lame, lame.   Also, you can't block me!  Haw haw 

But to get to the point:

Jim Schutze wrote: "Show me the crime rate among poor whites"

Okay.

West Virginia is the 3rd poorest state in the USA.

http://money.cnn*com/2010/09/16/news/economy/Americas_wealthiest_states/index.htm

==============

West Virginia has the 3rd lowest murder rate of all states in the USA.  Only Wisconsin and Wyoming are lower.  It also has one of the lowest overall crime rates.

http://www.deathpenaltyinfo*org/murder-rates-nationally-and-state

http://www.neighborhoodscout*com/wv/crime/

======

West Virginia, at 93.9% white, is also one of the whitest states.

http://abcnews.go*com/US/story?id=93608&page=1

http://quickfacts.census*gov/qfd/states/54000.html

JimS
JimS

If you start out with a racial matrix, you come out with a racial solution. Show me the crime rate among poor whites living in high concentrations of crime and poverty versus the rate for poor blacks and hispanics in the same situation, and we can talk.I can use your way of thinking to prove that poor Catholic left-handed black people living in Michigan commit a lot of crimes. Or not.You are simply reinforcing your own preconceptions by using them as a proof.

lorlee
lorlee

For the last 15 years, my next door neighbor has been a Section 8 recipient.  Absolutely no problems, therefore Section 8 recipients are great.  But like some of the others and the article author painting with a broad brush, that is anecdotal evidence. 

Just because someone is poor, that does not make them a criminal.  I wonder what some of you want to do with low income people -- often sounds like you want to round them up and cordon them off out of sight. 

Queen for a Day
Queen for a Day

Can you say "South Dallas"? Can you say "Southern Sector"? Can you say "Segregation"?

cp
cp

Dude, Lorlee lives in South Dallas. 

Guest
Guest

Yeah, no joke, City Hall et al already took care of that, its called South Dallas! 

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