Shade Learns You Don't Want to Make Hunt Angry As Its Late-Night Permit Gets Tossed

ShadeSkanks.jpg
From Shade's website
Many of those Lower Greenville specific use permits approved by the City Plan Commission came before the city council today, which is why Bruce Richardson, repping a coalition of neighborhood associations, was perched at the podium for the better part of the last hour, saying nice things about some applicants and not-so-nice things about others and sparking a lengthy discussion about parking along and around Lower Greenville. Which we'll return to at some point. But not now.

If the parking situation's a bit muddled, let's say, one thing is very clear: Even some well-liked applicants with good track records -- like, say, Greenville Avenue Pizza Company, which CPC said should get a five-year permit renewal -- aren't going to have an easy time before the council. Because the pizzeria's five-year permit just got knocked down to two years, per Pauline Medrano's proposal following a lengthy discussion over lengths of leases, the number of parking spaces and the whole point of her and Hunt's ordinance concerning the Lower Greenville Planned Development district.

And then there's the case of Shade, at 2214 Greenville Avenue.

A few weeks ago, City Plan Commission approved extending its late-hours permit without any questions whatsoever; city staff had also recommended OK'ing a one-year extension for Shade. Problem is: Shade's permit is currently for a "a late-hours establishment limited to a restaurant without drive-in or drive-through service." And Shade ain't a restaurant. No how, no way. Why is why Hunt went against the CPC and staff's recommendation. Hard.

Shade is "a dance club, a bar ...  and to me, the best way to understand how someone is going to behave in the future is to look at how they have behaved in the past," Hunt said. "And if someone has violated the trust of the city and and taken advantage of an illegal use, I am not predisposed to allow you a permit to allow you to open from midnight to 2 a.m."

Hunt told the owners: You want to actually turn Shade into a restaurant? Swell. Do that. Then come back "once you get a track record that you're not operating outside the bounds of the law, as you have been." At that point, said Hunt, "I will endorse a late-hours permit." But not before. Which is why she moved to deny the permit without prejudice, meaning Shade won't have to wait two years before reapplying for the SUP.

Mayor Mike Rawlings then asked Assistant City Manager Ryan Evans a question: "For myself, for my first time around the block, if someone has a SUP and they don't work in compliance, what is the procedure to pull it away?" Evans said Theresa O'Donnell, head of Sustainable Development, would be better equipped to answer.

So she took to the podium and said, well, most SUPs come with expiration dates. And if there's an issue with a permit-holder, "The city allows it to expire, and when they come back in for review, appropriate action is taken." O'Donnell added that a city can authorize a hearing "at its discretion" to review someone's SUP.

"The moment they start not complying, our action ... how long would it take?" asked the mayor. "A month? Two months? Six months? O'Donnell noted that the process usually takes about four to six months.

The only other council member to ask questions was Sheffiie Kadane: "Do we know they're not complying?"

O'Donnell said, well, sure: "Evidence presented that shows ..."

Kadane interrupted: "And we haven't done anything to stop it?"

They both mumbled a few things, O'Donnell said something about taking it up with city attorneys, and Kadane concluded with a rumbling, "Hmmm, well ..."

In the end, Hunt's motion passed: SUP denied without prejudice. Shade's gotta close at midnight.

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83 comments
BCulbreath
BCulbreath

People wonder why conventions don't come to Dallas.City Council uses Zoning to regulate behavior and its wrong.Greenville Ave has been an entertainment district for years,people buying houses and moving in knew where they  moved and what existed.Deep Elm was a hot district it used zoning to rid itself of Black Ragga dance club,West End was hot people walking all over place ,now it looks like a grave yard at night.Dallas fought Topless clubs all way to Supreme Court,Court said you must set aside 5% of an area for these businesses to operate.All businesses Hunt and Company are trying to close,close early are paying liquor tax 14% on each drink sold that my friends is a lot of money to lose.The whole Greenville thing was too many Hispanic youth coming and residents were afraid, but not afraid of Skin Heads. Until this City allows people to enjoy life at places other than Starbucks our convention business will continue to decline no matter how many hotels we build.

M Dot
M Dot

I beg to differ.  There were a lot of questions about Shade during our City Plan Commission meeting. If memory serves me right, we spent about 45 minutes on that case with respect to the same issues raised by Councilwoman Hunt. If memory serves me correctly we only gave them a one-year SUP. So there's that.

Paul
Paul

I'm  shocked ... I'm shocked to find out that there are businesses on Lower Greenville that don't abide by the terms of their CO ...

Oh no, we are not a dance hall ... we just have the boom boom speakers, dj, mirror balls, strobes, articulated lights for decorative purposes ... Oh and that hardwood flooring area in front of the DJ stand without any tables or chairs ... well we've ordered them but we don't know when they will get here ...

Oh and here is our menu of six different foods ... popcorn, peanuts, crackers ...

OED_denizen
OED_denizen

Actually Shade was specifically questioned about the dance videos at the CPC and was told that they didn't control what gets on youTube and that it was very difficult to control people dancing. They were then told by the CPC that they had better learn how to control that behavior because they were only getting one year.

Person
Person

It's funny establishments classified as a "restaurant" like Zubar pass, but Shade doesn't.  We should all be used to double standards by now.

ThatGuy
ThatGuy

I think a lot of these problems started with a crooked city inspector who approved "restaurant" Certificates of Occupancy for places that didn't even have a hot plate.  I think this person is now retired.  It was wink wink nod nod.  Now they have to live by the rules. Too bad.  Go Angela.

Phelps
Phelps

Why in the hell do we let the city tell someone when they can and can't open thier own business in the first place?

America: free daily from 9am to midnight.

Paul
Paul

This area of Lower Greenville is zoned PD-842.  It is zoned for Community Retail and MO-2.  It is surrounded largely by R-7.5 and MF-2

There is no zoning designation for which I am aware that is called "Entertainment District"

A bar or a dance hall requires an SUP, period.

The problem is not skinheads, or Black Ragga or any of that.  The problem is that the City did not enforce its the zoning requirements.

This is not about Hispanic youth coming and residents being afraid, this is about the fallout of criminal activity.  Barfights, rape, and, gun seizures are all recent occurences in this neighborhood.

This is not about regulating behavior.  It is about regulating land use.

It is the police that regulate behavior and they are on Lower Greenville every weekend.  I believe that the tax revenue from the liquor by the drink, beer and wine sales is easily overshadowed by the cost of the police presence.

Paul
Paul

Ms. Betty ... Lower Greenville Avenue from Belmont to Ross is zoned Community Retail.  While what you say is true that there have been bars there for years it is because the City did not and has not enforced the zoning regulations for this area.

Prior to the bars, it was indeed Community Retail. I do not know when the City changed the zoning to "Entertainment District" if indeed such a designation exists.

Also, can you explain why the City allowed these "restaurants" to encroach upon the public right of way in order to expand their businesses?

Here is an example of what our "neighborhood bars" are like ... before anyone gets all huffy and discredit this because it is Avi Adelman, just look at the pictures, they speak for themselves ...

http://www.barkingdogs.org/new...

and

http://www.barkingdogs.org/new...

and his "famous" PI arrest list, which basically means you were s*!^ faced drunk and obnoxious to boot ...

http://www.barkingdogs.org/new...

You stupid illiterate bitch
You stupid illiterate bitch

There havent been skinheads in deep ellum since 1989 you dumb bitch. The black reggae club attracted tons of violent blacks who caused several documented shootings, stabbings, and killings. I know because I was in deep ellum the whole time. The blacks were a far greater threat than the skinheads, and I was part of the group that violently attacked the skins so often that they stopped coming to deep ellum en masse in 1989. Holy shit you are a stupid bitch.

Also, when writing sentences, you should put at least one space between the period ending a sentence and the first letter of the first word of the next sentence. It will make reading your idiotic retarded drivel much easier, you stupid bitch.

Chris Danger
Chris Danger

I love when they let Crazy Betty out of the rubber room for one hour a day to unleash her "sista fury"..In all seriousness, the reason many of these businesses like Black Ragga, Club U-Ropa and others closed in deep ellum was simple: They brought in morons and bad element to the neighborhood. The neighborhood association and business joined forces with the residents to make sure these "thug clubs" (which is quite a few on lower greenville are) were thrown out of Ellum a few years back. We asked for SUPs for the simple fact we wanted the opportunity to control our neighborhoods destiny. I see the same thing right now w/ Greenville Ave, and I respect that.

The only thing I disagree w/ Angela Hunt on is late night SUPs for restaurants which have traditionally been able to stay open late w/o challenge in the past, Heres hoping its adjusted sooner than later..

Mike
Mike

Give me a break.  How much convention business except maybe a comic book convention would ever end up at a place like Shade?  Lots of people in thirties and forties, usually with families at home, hanging out at Shade?  That is the overwhelming bulk of convention business.  Deep Ellum got hurt when the gangsta wannabes took over.  Believe it or not other cities have places that are fun for adults and are not neighborhood problems.  They understand a lot of fun clubs can exist between a Starbucks and an eyesore whose main purposes are to be as loud as technology permits plus pour as much alcohol into its customers as is physiologically possible.

Paul
Paul

Dear Michael:

Please issue COs only to business that meet the Community Retail designation on Greenville between Belmont and Ross Avenue.

If a business wants a variance from the Community Retail designation, please have them apply for a SUP and hold a public hearing on the matter.

It would be nice to once again have retail businesses that supply goods and services to our neighborhood.

Sincerely Yours;

Paul

Loves GAPC
Loves GAPC

Michael

Hate to tell you this, but I have a tape of the entire hearing that day -

The minutes are as follows

Billiard Bar - 2 minutes

Greenville Avenue Pizza - 32 minutes

Kush - 15 minutes

Nandina - 10 minutes

Service Bar - 22 minutes

Shade - 21 minutes

Taco Cabana - 5 minutes

Yucatan - 22 minutes

In other words, your panel spent more time on a good business with a bad landlord than a bad business with a website to prove how bad it was.

For the record, their were four parking attendants on Greenville Avenue last night. One was guarding the lot behind Greenville Avenue Pizza - and they were the only business open which used that lot. The patrons parked and paid and went to places like Lost Society and Pussycat.

So please don't tell me the process worked - despite the omigod we had no idea there were people standing back there taking money protests from the landlords, the beat still goes on.

Michael C
Michael C

Um... why would you give them anything?

Please explain to me why ANY approval would be given to a dance club whose permit is for a restaurant? 

That's what I have never understood throughout the past several years when Avi keeps bringing up the fact that many of these businesses shouldn't even be open. And the response of the city staff during this example is stunning - and it sounds as if the Mayor was equally shocked.

Can't the city council force Suhm and the city staff to do their jobs?

John_McKee
John_McKee

Mickey's formally on Cedar Springs didn't have a dancehall licence even though they had a live DJ and often had large open spaces and they strictly enforced the no dancing rule. Seriously, they would ask people to leave if the didn't stop dancing when requested, multiple men in the women's restroom was less enforced than the no dancing. I personally witnessed it and they did not joke around with it.

I personally do not understand this dancehall licensing at all, as far as I can tell it is just another blue law to make the baptists happy and an excuse to regulate bad businesses but the no dancing rules absolutely can be enforced because I have witnessed it successfully enforced for years in a bar playing dance music and with limited furniture.

Phelps
Phelps

Yeah, these danged youngsters, with their jazz music and reefers and hot rod automobiles, doing the charleston and twist and carrying on.  It leads to fornication you know.  Listening to the devil's music and dancing and playing cards.

zorro
zorro

hmmm.. now step to the right...  ...boy!!

zorro
zorro

yes, you really should...

OED_denizen
OED_denizen

No one came forward indicating that Zubar was anything other than a bar pretending to be a restaurant. Unlike Shade which is also a bar pretending to be a restaurant, there were individuals, including their own website, that indicated that they were a dance club.

BCulbreath
BCulbreath

Only in City of Dallas SUP regulation.

Paul
Paul

I lived in Houston for a long long time.  It is true that there are no zoning regulations from the city.  The city does have strict regulation on drainage, sewage, water supply, street access among others.  If there is a project that is really not wanted, the city will just deny the sewer and water hookup or place onerous drainage requirements.

But then again, in just about every neighborhood, there are very strong homeowner's associations who enforce every deed restriction.  I rented a townhome and there were requirements from the HOA as to the types of flower pots that I could have on the balcony.

There may not be zoning per se in Houston, but there are very real and very strong limitations to what you can do in certain neighborhoods.

Houston did have zoning up until the early fifties when there was a tiff between the then Houston mayor and some powerful Houstonians.  The mayor's cronies were wanting to build an industrial plant and the other Houstonians didn't.  The next day, the mayor got a motion passed in a council meeting to void all zoning regulations.  It has been that way ever since.

Michael C
Michael C

Well, for one thing, to prevent a 24 hour car wash from opening next door to your house.

The idea that the government has no reason or right to get involved in how people run their business is so obviously unrealistic that I'm always shocked when people start spouting off about it. 

Do you want the restaurant you eat at to not have to follow any safety rules? Do you want the guy who lives next door to you to start running an auto repair shop out of his front yard? Do you want your employer to stop allowing you a lunch break?

Paul
Paul

It is called zoning ... I would like to open an abattoir next door to where you live ... I trust that you won't mind ...

zorro
zorro

liquified macrobiotic bovine wash..

rumpunch
rumpunch

Chris, couldn't agree with you more.  We need to have a benefit concert in order to get Betty round the clock supervision.  The crazy comes out generally between 1 and 3 am. 

Also, do you have any idea of what "skinheads" she is referring to?  Could they just be bald people?  Avi's bald.  Is he a skinhead? 

BCulbreath
BCulbreath

I have no idea what Shades look like. You very intelligent people missed my point,I said USING ZONING as a way to regulate behavior is wrong, As one of you said Ragga Club had THUGS, Thugs are a problem for Police,Parents,Family ,Church and club Owners not Planning and Zoning Officials ,and again sooner or later City of Dallas will pay another million or so to a business, just like in Cinemark case  at Inwood Rd. One of you called me crazy because I expressed my opinion.You express your, I'm crazy Betty if I express mine. I will guarantee you when one of these cases go to Court Dallas will lose just like DFW,American Airlines lost the Ricks Topless bar case last week.I speak the truth from Data furnished by the Hospitality industry,you folk speak from emotion because a drunk man pissed on you lawn,the man is wrong, not zoning or business owner.Garden Restaurant denied SUP to serve beer and wine neighbors liked him but were Afraid of what Future Owner would do.What zoning or law is written in any book that gives a legal reason to deny a right to enhance your business on ,Future Use of another owner? I served on P& Z twice ,and Chaired it twice  I know the Code ,and watched Cases overturned in Court.Do some homework before you call me crazy and put your commas and periods in your mind when you read this.

rumpunch
rumpunch

BCulbreath, your are way off.  As a resident of the area, I am very disturbed by some of the crowds and their race has nothing to do with it.  To suggest that we are OK with skinheads is the most retarted thing that I have heard in a long time.  Considering the two most vocal activist of the area are a Jew and a hippie bassist, I have a hard time believing that young followers of the National Socialist movement are their vision of LG.

Just like your post last week on the DFW strip club, your best thoughts are not found in the middle of the night.  At least this one was somewhat coherent.  You need to lock up your computer after midnight.

Considering that the vast majority of the clubs are getting support from the neighborhood during this process.  So far the only clubs which were established which have been opposed were Service Bar, Shade and Yucatan.  Far more were mostly unapposed with the exception of parking.

I stopped going to Deep Ellum because of homeless and parking.  I stopped going to West End because I don't eat every meal out with my Parents.  You cannot blame us residents for not wanting bad bars.  We are all ok with the good ones and in fact, the good ones get better when the bad ones are gone.  Time to thin out the herd.

rumpunch
rumpunch

Don't forget to review and audit the CO's of the existing business to ensure that they are what they say they are.

Another interesting idea I just had.  To get an SUP, for every hour you want to be open after 10pm, you have to be open an hour before 4pm. The economics then force the business to be a better neighbor.    

M Dot
M Dot

My point was that Shade did not sail through as indicated; thanks for backing that up. and I pushed for Greenville Pizza to get a longer permit than they actually received. If you have the tape as you say, play that part and get back to us on that.

BCulbreath
BCulbreath

A restaurant can apply to police department for dance hall permit pay 500.00 if they pass other stipulation fee might have gone up since I was on CPC.

BCulbreath
BCulbreath

You are correct and revenue. The whole City deal is you cannot operate a bar only in Dallas. Pub's or neighborhood bars are not allowed in Dallas you can only serve liquor by drink in Restaurants that's why so many CO are for Restaurants city is suppose to audit food vs drinks sold ,however I Have no idea if its being done,City does receive monthly liquor sales and tax revenues from TABC.

Phelps
Phelps

Didn't Kevin Bacon already do this movie?

BCulbreath
BCulbreath

Houston continues to grow and I did not hear them crying about city deficit.

Phelps
Phelps

I can see wanting to zone out places for car washes.  Telling the car wash when they can operate is ridiculous.  Either they are there or they aren't.  Houston doesn't have zoning, and it hasn't devolved to Thunderdome in the last fifty years despite all the cries about how extremely vital zoning is.

Do I want the restaurant I eat at to not follow any safety rules?  I don't want that.  Do I think that all of sudden because there isn't some useless bureaucrat harassing them that they are suddenly going to start poisoning their customers?  Hell no.  Dead and sick customers stop buying.

Do I want the guy who lives next door to start running an auto repair shop out of his front yard?  Sure.  It's called bootstrapping.  It's not like he is going to try to service five cars a day out of his garage.  When he gets to that level, he's going to rent a dedicated garage.  How is this economy supposed to get turned around if no one can afford to start a business because some idiot at city hall decides that they need an army of lawyers to get all the permits and licenses and a long-term lease to fix effin cars?

Do I want my employer to stop allowing me a lunch break?  That's between me and my employer.  They don't "allow" me to take a lunch break.  I allow them to employ me.  Reasonable hours are part of the agreement.

Phelps
Phelps

Right, because dancing is analogous to running a factory.

Downtown Resident
Downtown Resident

If you're dead set on using your fancy two dollar words to appear pithy you should at least spell them right. One b two t's on abattoir.

Paul
Paul

No problem on the typos ... my main point is that in Dallas we have zoning as to what are permissible uses for land in different parts of the City.  The concept is to have orderly sustainable development and to avoid blight.  The stretch of Lower Greenville is zoned Community Retail.  Many of these businesses are nonconforming to this designation.  Why they are even allowed to continue in business is something that I don't understand.

As long as we have zoning, your arguments, while good, are not topical to the situation or the current debate.

It appears that you are proposing that we have no zoning, yet the situation on Lower Greenville is prima facie evidence of what can happen when the zoning ordinances are not enforced.

What you are proposing for your neighborhood is not only a specious argument but is discriminatory based upon age.

As far as the argument of public urination, that is already against the law regardless of age.

My own neighbor passed away 2 weeks shy of her 100th birthday and had lived in the same house for over 60 years.  She was part and parcel of the neighborhood.

We have teardowns and North Plano specials going in.  Do I like it? No, but that it the landowner's right to do that and more importantly, it is a conforming use.

It appears that we will probably never agree on the situation, but that is OK.

Jason
Jason

The number of beer trucks and the liquor store at the Ross and Greenville: Sounds like they are meeting the needs of consumers.  Supply and Demand.  A Laissez Faire economy.  

Look.  I'm a reasonable person.  I'm not saying that the neighborhood should be unlivable for the neighbors.  I just think that a new measuring stick being applied to businesses that hinder their survival is wrong.  I've watched it unfold through the reporting on this blog.

Hypothetical:  What if my neighborhood was overtaken by a bunch of old people.  And let's say I can't stand the sight of wheel chairs, walkers, and old wrinkly people.  Would it be right for me and a group of neighbors to band together and restrict in some way their livelihood?  Should we be able to lobby the city in a way that restricts their way of life?  And the city go along with it under the guise that they are trying better the neighborhood?  Keep in mind, it's not just a few old people.  It's swarms of them.  Up and down the block all day long.  In their wheelchairs and walkers and canes.  The blue hair.  The orthopedic shoes.  I've even witnessed a few urinate in the bushes.  Now, I'm sure it's just that their under the influence of meds or that they just don't know any better.  But, damn.  I mean.  I live here.   Should I go to the city and have them make up some kind of new regulations?  Or, maybe.  Just maybe do we find the root cause and try and get that taken care of?

I say it again.  It is wrong to legislate to hinder the rights of others.  Especially when there are existing ways to combat the problems.

What is being done to Lower Greenville is ridiculous.  But.  The people that live there seem to know better and have better insight as to what businesses they think they want and what will want to move in there.  I still stand by my thought that there will be empty storefronts for years to come.  Look at Deep Ellum. 

And I still can't believe no one was brave enough to show fear in a Neighborhood Walmart possibly moving in.  That is the complete opposite direction for that neighborhood.  What business would want to move in from that?  Especially a neighborhood that is supposed to be young, hip and vibrant.  Walmart brand does not fit.  But, the neighbors know better and have had the hand of god to go against laissez-faire.

*Too tired to proof.  Please excuse any typos.

BCulbreath
BCulbreath

City SUP said so. Point I tried to make but everyone called me crazy.Government regulating behavior.What is difference about a drunk man at 12 midnight vs. 2AM.

BCulbreath
BCulbreath

That is when I stopped going. I was a fan of Club Clearview.

Paul
Paul

Part of the problem is the rents charged by the landlords ... the only way to make the rents is by pouring lots of alcohol.  The landlords have taken advantage of the situation where the city allowed the nonconforming uses.  Now the landlords have an out with the city as the bad guy.

As near as I can tell, the only thing that these "businesses" do is pour a lot of alcohol ... the steady stream of beer trucks is amazing ...  that and why do you think that there is the large liquor store at Ross and Greenville ...

Jason
Jason

What I recognized a while back, and to which Chris Danger has advocated and I guess championed himself, is that this portion of Greenville is going to ultimately turn out to be just like Deep Ellum is today.  Now, to Deep Ellum it doesn't really matter.  What it is today is kind of like the Deep Ellum I mentioned above from the mid-80s.  It's a couple of bars/clubs and a bunch of warehouse businesses.  The only difference is that there are fewer industrial-style warehouse businesses and the bars/clubs that are trying to thrive down there are ones that are basing their business model on the model of the early 90s heyday.  It's forced and not organic.  This is where Lower Greenville is headed.  

This SUP process is a stick of dynamite to take care of a pesky ant problem.  What the neighborhood is going to be left with are empty store fronts.  I just don't see why everyone who has taken part in the process are expecting great things to come from getting rid of business.  I've asked before but I never got an answer.  I stated that I was serious but I think everybody took it as snark.  What does the neighborhood really envision for the future?  Unless someone can pull off a coup and get Trader Joe's* to go into the old Whole Foods space, I really don't see this neighborhood coming back.  Less foot traffic is going to mean less business for the ones that are deemed "good business" by someone from on high.  Business happens organically unless a stimulus is involved.  Is the city going to offer incentives to get business into this area once everything is gone?  Do you think Food Trucks are really going to set up in a parking lot if there is no foot traffic?  It might become a destination for a while but it won't last forever.  

The foresight in what Hunt/Medrano saw needs to be called into question at some point.  A business killing SUP process.  A business killing roads project.  What was their vision?  Unless you can tell me there is a business person that really sees this area as a place they want to invest after they've seen the slaughter that's take place in recent months, I just don't see a future.  

I've said this before.  I don't live in the neighborhood and I rarely go there anymore.  Not because I don't go out but because there is nothing there for me.  It's boring.  And, going back to the massacre that's taken place there in the past few months, I don't see anything being there for me in the future.  The only reason why I take part in this discussion is because I think there are some very bad decisions being made for that neighborhood and not being made by the most competent of people.  I hate that there are a handful of people that have the influence to tell businesses how they must do things.  The goal posts have been moved on business owners in the Lower Greenville area and the playing field is much different for them and for Deep Ellum businesses than it is for businesses on Henderson and in Uptown or Oak Lawn.  Sure would hate to see the number of public intox violations from those areas and how many businesses would be able to survive that scrutiny.*This has nothing to do with your comment but why does everyone foam at the mouth when it comes to Trader Joe's?  Have they ever been there?  I lived down the street from one in LA and only went there when I was too lazy to walk a bit further for the Whole Foods.  But, in saying that, they just might (maybe) work for that neighborhood and could bring a feel of the way LG used to be and maybe resuscitate the area. 

rumpunch
rumpunch

I think I see your point Jason.  I am not a fan of the SUP concept, however my fear is it is just another regulation to be ignored. 

The real question to ask is how we came to this. I really just wish the City would just use the existing regulations to affect change, however they are unable or unwilling to.  The SUP process has really become more of a day of judgement for these bars and clubs.  However, for the neighborhoods, the SUP process has been the only opportunity for City staff to take a close look at the businesses' compliance.   Therefore, I think of the SUP process as a way to put both the City and businesses on notice and under review.

I just want change, and my problems with the SUP process are far outweighted by the need to change.  Thin the herd of the weak and sick and the herd will prosper.  I bought a house off of Greenville because of Greenville. I don't want a Disney version, nor do I want Stugis.  You can have vibrant without mayhem.

Jason
Jason

Betty is talking about skinheads in the mid/late 80s to very early 90s, before Deep Ellum was Disney Ellum and now Ghost Town Ellum.  She is talking about a time that only a handful of people remember because that was our neighborhood before it was your neighborhood.  She is referring to a time when there were a couple of blues clubs, before Deep Ellum Live switched from a country/western dance club to a live venue, back when Lois was still alive and was the one to serve downtown lawyers and off duty police officers a cold one and a burger.

Please remember that Deep Ellum had thugs (and a different reggae club) before the time that you are discussing.  It was just different then.  The thugs were white.  Their music was loud but it wasn't filled with bass.  It was full of loud guitars, drum, bass and a bit of screaming about Reaganomics.  

I think the most important thing you need to take away from what Betty is saying is that handling thuggish behavior isn't done by a hand of god (the city) but done by "police, parents, family, church and club owners".  This whole SUP process is to create new ways to regulate behavior, not existing laws/regs.  Police enforce laws.  The city enforces laws, yes, which is what club owners are being held to.  BUT, not a whole new process of approving if your existing business gets to keep operating under the same rules when you were established or what future business might go into that spot.

Every bar is going to have problems.  It is just inevitable.  Can someone remind me again why the Service Bar is now forced to close at midnight?   A few fights?  A few public intoxes?  Surely the Blue Note up the street has more violations.  This whole thing just feels like an abuse of power.  That power being a microscope being put on a strip of businesses.  

rumpunch
rumpunch

I agree with Chris.  Betty, its not whether we think you are right or wrong, it more your delivery and logic.  Most of the time I actually agree with you, however if you are trying to make a case, making others understand your point is crutial.  It is more than a just matter of missing punctionation.   

Chris Danger
Chris Danger

Betty, When you learn to have cohesive thought and proper sentence structure, then people might consider your normal. Instead, you seem to type out a stream of run-together nonsense.

You can NEVER block me
You can NEVER block me

There haven't been skinheads in deep ellum since 1989, you dumb bitch. The black reggae club attracted tons of violent blacks who caused several documented shootings, stabbings, and killings. I know because I was in deep ellum the whole time. The blacks were a far greater threat than the skinheads, and I was part of the group that violently attacked the skins so often that they stopped coming to deep ellum en masse in 1989. Holy shit you are a stupid bitch.

Also, when writing sentences, you should put at least one space between the period ending a sentence and the first letter of the first word of the next sentence. It will make reading your idiotic retarded drivel much easier, you stupid bitch.

Delete this again, you libtard assholes at the observer, I'll just post it right back up.

YOU CAN NEVER BLOCK ME NO MATTER HOW HARD YOU TRY

BCulbreath
BCulbreath

Judge ruled DFW club met all laws of State of Texas and ordered TABC to issue license.

Holy shit
Holy shit

There haven't been skinheads in deep ellum since 1989, you dumb bitch. The black reggae club attracted tons of violent blacks who caused several documented shootings, stabbings, and killings. I know because I was in deep ellum the whole time. The blacks were a far greater threat than the skinheads, and I was part of the group that violently attacked the skins so often that they stopped coming to deep ellum en masse in 1989. Holy shit you are a stupid bitch.

Also, when writing sentences, you should put at least one space between the period ending a sentence and the first letter of the first word of the next sentence. It will make reading your idiotic retarded drivel much easier, you stupid bitch.

BCulbreath
BCulbreath

 I stopped going to Deep Elm  and so did many other people when Skin Heads took over,I'm not sure when you arrived in Dallas I've been here 70 years.I saw no zoning change sought doing that time if there was find it and I will apologize.Strip Club out by DFW met all laws governing Strip Clubs so what do you find so troubling about my comments.I must have been correct Judge ruled there was no legal reason to deny permit and TABC had to issue.

GusMitchem
GusMitchem

You stopped going to DE because you got too old, it happens to all of us, its ok. Once drinking and getting laid become more trouble than its worth it seems like a bigger political issue but really the parking was always bad, just when you were young it was juming or kicking and a good place to be.

Then the next generation comes up and they have their area, (reduced drastically by the internet freakiness and gaming) thats just life. 

GAPC Lover
GAPC Lover

There's no reason to play the tapes, since that was not the question here (and i have no intention of listening to a bunch of fogeys that long).

The point was - You and your associates did NOT apply the same stress test to Shade, based on evidence provided to the panel by Bruce Richardson and others, that you applied to Greenville Pizza.

In all the hearings on this SUP, the panel has ignored the third-rail of Lowest Greenville - parking. Instead of denying SUPs based on the lack of delta credits, you took the Madison attorney at his word they WILL get the CO's with the right amount of parking and if delta credits are included, well screw the whole idea and give them the CO anyway.

Paul
Paul

Houston is also not landlocked as Dallas is.  If Dallas is to grow we need to make sure that all of our land is put to the highest and best uses.

We cannot afford vacant and unproductive land in the manner that Houston can.

BTW, how much do any of the other Dallas County cities contribute to the Bridge?

Minutemanphelps
Minutemanphelps

^^^and Houston is a cluster*#@k structures because of it.

rumpunch
rumpunch

Regardless of whether Houston has zoning, no zoning or bad zoning, is Houston really the "best practice" we are trying to emulate? 

Houston sucks shit
Houston sucks shit

I hate the ugly ghetto shit-hole known as Houston, and the lack of zoning there is a huge part o the reason why. If you like trashy ghetto eyesores everywhere then go live in Houston you dipshit.

Phelps
Phelps

Congratulations, you can cut and paste and add an insult.

Did you really think that I didn't read the stuff I posted?  And no, I don't agree that it is disingenuous, especially when we are talking about zoning being abused to prevent dancing.

GusMitchem
GusMitchem

Sure sounds like zoning to me, either way Houston is basically Louisiana so can we really compare ?

mYtY
mYtY

It's disingenuous to say that Houston has no zoning without mentioning that it does have strict, minimum parking regulations, strict minimum lot size regulations, and wide streets and long blocks. Though it might not have traditional single-use Euclidean zoning regulations, it does have a lot of strictures that limit density and discourage walkability and feasibility of mass transit. You dickweed.

mYtY
mYtY

And if he has a robust business at home why go to "main street"? Yeah, that's what I thought.

mYtY
mYtY

The market is no some magical cure. The market will keep him out of the residential area? Ha! Yeah right. Why would he pay rent when he can do it at home? You are basing your "assumptions" on fantasy.  

And Houston does have zoning you dumb fuck. You are taking a small fact and basing your stupid assumptions on them. 

Like I said, Libertarian fantasy......

Phelps
Phelps

No, zoning promotes cronyism at City Hall.  The market keeps businesses out of residential areas.  Businesses are going to stick to main streets where customers can find them.  Sure there are people who would try to service tons of cars at home.  They just wouldn't be able to.

Like I said, all your hysterical bullshit is put to the lie when you look at Houston, which has no zoning and none of these problems.

mYtY
mYtY

ITs your silly notion that a guy is going to pay rent when he can use his yard. Zoning keeps people from having businesses in residential areas. There are plenty of people out there who would try to service 5 cars a day out of their home garage. You are naive to think they would not.

Phelps
Phelps

So you are saying that the zoning we pass is useless?

And you think that means you are disagreeing with me?

mYtY
mYtY

"It's not like he is going to try to service five cars a day out of his garage.  When he gets to that level, he's going to rent a dedicated garage."

LMAO  Yeah sure he is. Tell that to the Mexican guy down the street. I love Libertarian fantasies.......so cute.

BCulbreath
BCulbreath

City of dallas does not allow neighborhood bars must be restaurant to sell liquor by the drink. Liquor Dealers used Zoning to prevent loss of their sales after Liquor by drink was passed in Texas. Just as they funded campaign aganist beer and wine being sold City wide.

Paul
Paul

Well these are hardly neighborhood bars here ...

The main point is that these businesses are not conforming to use for an area zoned as Community Retail.  Why did the City allow these nonconforming uses?

If you are so against zoning, then show up at each CPC hearing and tell them that they shouldn't be deciding this use or that use.

Phelps
Phelps

You got to the heart of it when you likened it to prohibitionists.  The reality is, both sides are prohibitionists -- the only disagreement is who gets the "nice" neighborhood and who gets the "vice" neighborhood.

Me, I think the prohibitionism and segregating does no one any good.  Stop telling people to do this here, do that there, and let people do what they want to do.  What is really better for us as a city -- a bunch of saloons concentrated in one place, or a neighborhood bar every three blocks?  I'll take the neighborhood bar any day.

Paul
Paul

If you want to debate please stay on topic.  At one point you say that it is good that the guy next door to you is repairing five cars a day out of his garage and then you are saying that it is not OK to start a business in a residential neighborhood ... when you contradict yourself, you negate your own thesis.

The fact is that the section of lower Greenville Avenue is zoned Community Retail.  A great many of the business there are noncompliant with the zoning designation.

Why did the City issue CO's to noncompliant businesses? I do not know.  Why do they not revoke the CO of the noncompliant business?  I do not know.

At least this process is a way to limit noncompliant businessess from operating.  Hopefully when one of them shuts down, the next occupant will have to comply with the Community Retail designation.

Personally, I think what happened to Lower Greenville is very much a "prohibitionist's" idea to put all of the "sin" businesses into a red light district.  Everybody knows that getting a dance hall SUP or a bar SUP is a long uphill climb, so what will we do?  Wink Wink Nudge Nudge, you can get a CO in this area and we'll look the other way until too many complaints come in.

The funny thing is that the only groups that recognized that these are in fact bars and dance halls is the local neighborhood and the Dallas Police.  Why the Dallas Police?  They do not allow off duty officers to work security at bars and dance halls.

The concept of businesses being located along thoroughfares is a poor one from the concept of traffic management.  This is how a lot of Houston is built out and why there is a lot of congestion.  Just look at Westheimer outside of the loop.  It is a 5+ mile long strip shopping center.

Neighborhoods do change.  Look at all the teardowns in Dallas alone, but it is still residential.

Have a nice day!

Phelps
Phelps

I mean it doesn't make economic sense.  A place that is good to build a house is generally not a place that is good to run a business.  If you want to live right on a major thoroughfare, then one of the downsides should be that you live with all the businesses on it.

Neighborhoods change.  It's a fact of life.  If it is no longer what you want, then the reasonable thing is for you to find what you want, not expect everyone around you to conform to your desires.  That's why we talk about being endowed with the right to the pursuit of happiness, not happiness itself.

Paul
Paul

It makes sense to me.  If it doesn't make sense to run a dance hall next door to you then why does it make sense to run one next door to me?

Before you get all huffy and try to say that the bars, excuse me, restaurants that serve lots and lots of alcohol and not a whole lot of food assuming that they can find a menu, were here before me, don't, as I was here before any of the bars, excuse me, restauraunts ... ... were here.

A lot of great businesses are now gone ... Kiser AC, Neros, Hall's Hobby Shop (OK it has been gone a long long time, but then I have been here a long long time) just to name a few.

The strip of Greenville between Belmont and Ross is zoned Community Retail.  Very few of the current businesses located there are compliant with a Community Retail designation.

Phelps
Phelps

People should be able to do what they want.  And it would make no sense to run a dance hall or an abattoir next to me, in any event.

Paul
Paul

Well ... what is your stand ... people should be able to do what they want or they should abide by the zoning regulations?

BTW, an abattoir is a slaughterhouse ... I supposed I could apply and make it kosher and then I can say that you are trying to discriminate on the basis of religion.

Paul
Paul

Thank you ... I wanted to see if anyone would notice ... ;-)

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