Will City Plan Commission OK Greenville Ave. Bowling Alley? We'll Find Out Thursday. Maybe.

bowlingalleyplans.jpg
No doubt you've heard of plans to plant a six-lane bowling alley-slash-bar next to Good Records on Lowest Greenville. It was on the City Plan Commission's agenda two weeks ago, at the same time the CPC replatted Valley View Center to make way for its inevitable demolition. Problem was, neighborhood groups banded together to protest the bowling alley, insisting that it was just another Greenville Avenue bar dolled up in a bowling shirt.

Residents are concerned about several factors, chief among them parking issues and plans for a rooftop patio, which is why the CPC put off granting Madison Partners its specific use permit two weeks ago and deferred the discussion to Thursday's meeting. I asked council member Angela Hunt this morning for her thoughts, and she says she "will wait till it comes to council" before commenting. But this is what city staff has to say on the subject:
Staff does not agree that alcohol service should be a factor in considering a specific use permit; however, staff agrees that the rooftop patio should not be in operation between the hours of midnight and 6:00 a.m. due to the adjacent residential uses to the north, east, and west. The applicant is requesting SUP conditions that would allow the rooftop patio to be utilized as part of the late-hours establishment but close the rooftop bar at 1:00 a.m. To mitigate sound, the applicant is proposing to use landscaping materials. If the CPC is inclined to approve the rooftop patio use for the late-hours establishment, staff supports potted evergreen landscaping materials that form a six-foot solid screen on the perimeter of the rooftop patio.
The entire City Plan Commission agenda can be found here.

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49 comments
Jennyhwy66
Jennyhwy66

Go Brook...fat lesbian elvis wanna-be.  Do this thing!!!  I support you and all you cronies.

Roscoe
Roscoe

Been going out on Greenville since the late 70s and live in the area. I say "approve".

Antihousewife
Antihousewife

You know, I live in the apartments across the street from here.  My fiance is a business owner on the street.  He's one of the few that I would say doesn't contribute to the problem we have on Lowest Greenville.  I think if this concept is well done, it will HELP the area.  Right now all we really have over there at night are the thuggy bars, with a few restaurants that opened fairly recently.  If we could replace these bars that are causing all the problems with businesses that provide entertainment without all the trouble, Lowest Greenville would become the kind of area we all want it to be.  We could hang out here, without dealing with all the nasty drunks coming from bars that don't seem to understand how to cut people off.  We are short in parking, I will admit.  But right here where this business is looking to go is surrounded by new developments, and the people who live there should know what they were getting into when they choose to live here.  I certainly did when I moved here.I admit though, the concept could be implemented in a way that will do exactly what we are trying to get out of the neighborhood.  But no one knows until it happens.  I think we should let them try.  With all the construction on the street right now, if it's a badly done bar it won't last long enough to really worry about anyway.

Pandalini
Pandalini

The condition of this property is deplorable.  You should smell it on the inside, it's beyond nasty.

Look everything surrounding it, landscaped, fluffed, manicured, good looking, not just a bunch of suburban crap.  The neighborhood, in other words, is BRINGING IT.  We invest and bring it.

If these property owners wanted to earn one shred of trust, that place would be landscaped within an inch of its life, beautifully painted and detailed, and the entire area spotless.  What kind of investment would that simple cosmetic lift require?  Damn near nothing. 

Look at their godawful ugly parking lots.  Blight.  Filth.  Then turn and look at the effort the neighborhood makes.  Pretty.  Trees.  Then turn and look at the godawful ugly parking lots.  Broken glass.  A chick's shirt.  Some barf.

What would it cost to plant a few trees?  What would it cost to make everything beautiful?  Not suburban, not mainstream.  Just some form of demonstrating any level of stewardship to the community.  What kind of transformation would that make?  What kind of trust might that engender?

These are the people who brought you The Regal Beagle, The Beagle, The other Beagle that was supposed to have a Chef named Cinnamon, The Beagle that was named Lucky's Roadhouse, the Lesbian Beagle, and the imaginary concert Beagle.  And it has never been anything but the fucking Beagle, becuase it's a hellhole and it needs to be scraped, not thrown a lifeline.

LaceyB
LaceyB

now, if only it would be a bar, bowling alley, and concert venue (like the bronco bowl I never got to go to). That would make a worthy trip to lowest greenville.

Jimbobguthrie
Jimbobguthrie

There needs to be a city-owned parking garage on Greenville and people also need to realize that this is a city -- not the suburbs.  Every business is NOT going to have its own dedicated parking lot.  So what if people park in front of your house to go to bars?  Don't move close to bars.  And allow for parking elsewhere. 

MattL1
MattL1

Looks like a good idea to me.  I'm a big fan of bars "dolled up" as bowling alleys.  What, pray tell, would the neighbors like to see in that space?  A Chili's? 

The Bollilo on McMillan
The Bollilo on McMillan

As a former lowest Greenville neighbor, I've seen this neighbor vs. bar teeth-nashing for 10+ years.  But to me, here's the catch: this is surrounded by NEW condos. For all his faults, Avi's old gripe that this scene was foisted on old residents doesn't work here.  These yuppies who buy 400K townhouses 500 feet from Greenville don't really get to talk out of both sides of their mouths, do they?!?

Chris Danger
Chris Danger

i'd rather have this WITH a rooftop bar opened til 1am instead of another ghettothug banger club that seem prevalent across the street. People down there need to realize their neighborhood is an entertainment district and learn to cope w/ as such. Ive been to the High Ball in austin and that place is amazing for a fun evening out, so heres hoping they open sooner than later!!

Also, why not copy the concept down in Ellum, as the old Deep Ellum Brewing Co. is still there rotting and could use a serious boost as well.

rumpunch
rumpunch

My only problem is that we as a neighborhood are asking to take a leap of faith.  Unlike some of the other SUP's, who are existing establishments, this is just a concept.

If the concept is what they propose, I for one welcome it and wish them good luck. 

Both sides made great points at the meeting two weeks ago.  The biggest issue for me and many of the commission members is the unanswered questions.  The developer needs to solidify some of the details (i.e. square footage of bowling lanes versus bar, capacity) in writing in order to make it viable.  There were too many abouts in the proposal.

If we compare it to other businesses which were requesting SUP's, they had evidence of their business operations and compliance, a concept needs to be a lot more concrete if they require the same consideration and neighborhood respect.

Justin B.
Justin B.

There's an awesome place in an old strip mall in Austin called the High Ball.  I believe it's only six or eight lanes, has a bar and restaurant and karoake rooms upstairs. 

If this is anywhere near as cool as that place, it would be a great addition to Greenville Avenue.  That may be immensely wishful thinking though. 

Does not bowl for soup
Does not bowl for soup

The CPC staff is actually a bunch of potted evergreen landscaping materials wearing suits. Do they really believe a bunch of uncared for trees will block any noise???

What happens when the trees die? Will the CPC staff plant new ones? I doubt the budget cuts would let them.

The bowling alley in a bar concept is a dumb idea, and using potted plants to block noise is event dumber. But, hey, this IS our City Hall at work.

scottindallas
scottindallas

"Livin' in a Hell holeGirl, get me out of this, Hell Hole..."

Michol Byron
Michol Byron

I feel like you're holding back something.

J. Erik Jonsson
J. Erik Jonsson

It already has a stage space, and when it was the Beagle, it had bands on the roof.  Which is how it managed to wake me up one Thursday night despite the fact that I live 5 blocks away.  So, thanks to all of you sooper geniuses who think the neighbors should just get over it.  We've seen this movie before and know how it turns out, but we'll just shut up so you can enjoy ironic hipster bowling about twice before the concept changes.  Screw the noise ordinance and requiring people to pee indoors!

Roscoe
Roscoe

I nominate knocking down the tacky strip mall Fiesta which replaced the beautiful George Dahl designed Sears Roebuck. A garage there could serve Greenville and Henderson

rumpunch
rumpunch

The problem is there is no space for a parking garage.  I believe that the old Whole Foods is deed restricted to not allow "pay-to-park".  I always thought that having a lot on Ross and then have a trolley run from the lot up Greenville to Richmond would have been great.  However, now that part of Greenville is being narrowed, there will be no room.

eastdallasgirl
eastdallasgirl

Yes, there certainly is more room for a bowling alley in Deep Ellum...more parking, more room for adult dancing / headbanging and karayokee faceoffs...

Coleman
Coleman

Man, the High Ball is great, love their karaoke rooms.

J. Erik Jonsson
J. Erik Jonsson

The High Ball is smaller, has no rooftop deck, and is not close to residential.  The space proposed on Greenville is the old Beagle space, which generated large numbers of noise and crime complaints primarily because of its size and outdoor area.  And that was with a good operator running it.  Additionally, the proposal has less than 3000 sq ft of bowling compared to well over 10,000 sq ft of bar.

elbueno
elbueno

Pretty sure this IS in fact a High Ball redux...The neighbors need to understand the classiness of such an establishment. This is a FAR cry from a skeezy bar or nightclub.

katie
katie

a bowling alley WITHOUT a bar is a dumb idea.

Sports Cactus
Sports Cactus

"The bowling alley in a bar concept is a dumb idea"

Yeah, who ever heard of a bar in a bowling alley? THAT'LL be the day!

Jimbobguthrie
Jimbobguthrie

It's actually a great idea that has worked for decades in other parts of the country.  There are companies that do hundreds of millions in business that are bowling alley-bar establishments.  I want Greenville Avenue to be safe.  But I also want it to thrive in the way that we all remembered -- with bars that are also good neighbors. 

Jimbobguthrie
Jimbobguthrie

There are a few paid lots that could be converted into multi-story parking garages.   

GusMitchem
GusMitchem

Would you put your business in Deep Ellum or more towards the center of disposale income households

rumpunch
rumpunch

If this what it is, then great.  Hopefully the developers will come a little more prepared to this meeting.  The High Ball comparison would be helpful.

The developer needs to understand, while they are investing quite a bit of financial capital, we as neighbors are investing tremendous risk capital.  If the plan is a lie or does not work, we are stuck with a 5 year SUP as a neighbor.  Basically, if the developer wants us to make this leap with them, we need some formal assurances.  They would not expect anything less from one of their actual business partners.

Does Not Bowl Midgets
Does Not Bowl Midgets

This could be the next Taj Mahal for all it matters. The issue is impact on the surrounding neighborhoods. What about our Return on Investment, our right to live in peace and quiet, our right to streets that are safe?

The venue proposes 300 guests and no parking spaces for them (and what few there are won't be free). So they invade the neighborhood looking for a parking space.

The SUP was presented by Hunt and everyone else as a way to bring back daytime commercial activities and nighttime restaurants and bars that fit the new streetscape of family friendly.

Unless you happen to be one of the midgets being bowled down the lane and brought your wife to help out, this place is not a good fit for the community.

eastdallasgirl
eastdallasgirl

Why doesnt City Hall consider a 2 story parking garage for lower greenville, with a security guard?  Simple. There a re a few vacant lots available.  Austin has this. Check it out. http://www.thehighball.com

Coleman
Coleman

hell, I wouldn't mind paying five bucks to park in a garage...better that than the bullshit valet parking throughout town. I don't often give Ft. Worth credit for doing something right, but those garages near their downtown square is pretty great.

Jimbobguthrie
Jimbobguthrie

If they don't want people parking in front of their houses and they object to a parking garage, where do those people think the cars are gonna go?  Outer-space? 

rumpunch
rumpunch

Sorry that should have been "by landlords"

rumpunch
rumpunch

Another thing, technically it will need to be free.  Therefore paid for my landlords and participating businesses.

rumpunch
rumpunch

I agree, but good luck.  You will have to get neighborhood blessing and someone to build and maintain it.

rumpunch
rumpunch

I agree that a bowling alley is a great idea.  My fear is that it is just "The Beagle" with a bowling alley. 

When the developers are only providing speculation, they should not be suprised when the opposition's case is based on speculation.

Sports Cactus
Sports Cactus

Practically anything would be an improvement over "Lucky's," or "The Beagle." Face it - this is Lowest Greenville. You're not going to do much better than this bowling alley.

GusMitchem
GusMitchem

the urban taco phenonemom astounds me, folks get really fancied up to eat street tacos

GusMitchem
GusMitchem

And no one would ever build anything in Dallas again, if the use isnt approved then there is no use for a full set of plans.

Besides I think you would be suprised how little field varification the Building Department actually does. They will check stairs, rails general saftey etc but as far as quality and finishout not their problem  

Coleman
Coleman

What does the Highball have to do with the Lowest Greenville Entertainment District, hoss?

Winky
Winky

Methinks Coleman should look at the drawings and understand that four thirty foot bars and six lanes in 14,500 square feet of Beagle hellhole is not the Highball model.

Coleman
Coleman

methinks some of the surrounding neighborhoods should realize that they have a giant entertainment district in their vicinity.

LaceyB
LaceyB

Welcome to my life EVERY Sunday night in Uptown with fucking Urban Taco and their boom-boom speakers so loud that my high-floor, way across the street apartment shakes.But, here's the thing...if Urban Taco had even 1/2 the class of this thing (and 1/2 the fun) hell, I'd happily have it over the empty lots.Just call the po-po on overcrowding and noise after 10pm Sunday/workdays. I already started an account: Bea Quiet.

cp
cp

"Bowling alley" and "classy" in the same sentence with not a whit of irony.....

Chris Danger
Chris Danger

..and again, a reason you might belong in the lilly-white suburbs of frisco or plano, as you can have your suburban slice of cake and eat it too...

elbueno
elbueno

Or....

you, yourself, as a resident can have a very nice classy bowling alley/cocktail lounge like the Highball within walking distance. 

I used to be a resident of Lowest Greenville and this is a HUGE improvement over an empty space or any sort of skeezy bar. 

Understand the neighborhood in which you live. Its not Plano, folks. Lowest Greenville will remain, for the time being, an entertainment district. This will change as time goes on, but it will take time. Shutting out the classier establishments will only cause decline and ongoing vacancies. 

Quit waiting around for this magical transformation to occur overnight. Realize that this bowling lounge IS part of the transformation. 

rumpunch
rumpunch

I wish that the city would require the developer to have all of the plans go through the permit process before the SUP is granted.  Then at least we have assurance of square footages, occupancy and parking requirements.

I like the concept, but hate the unknown.

J. Erik Jonsson
J. Erik Jonsson

It will be far, far more than 300 guest occupancy.  The applicant falsely claimed that half the floor space was taken up with bowling lanes. 

GusMitchem
GusMitchem

Parking garages are expensive and making that money back on two nights a week is a longshot

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