Plan Commissioners: This Isn't Just About a Bowling Alley, But Future of Lower Greenville

New Look Greenville Ave2.jpg
A look back at the plans for the new-look Lower Greenville Avenue
I've tried several times this morning to reach Michael Northrup, the attorney repping a coalition of neighborhood associations at yesterday's City Plan Commission meeting where Madison Partners' bowling alley concept was voted down 6-5. I'll keep trying and post his thoughts separately. But I did manage to talk to Bill Peterson, the professor of biochemistry at UT Southwestern Medical Center appointed to the CPC by Angela Hunt in the fall of '09, and Michael Anglin, Dave Neumann's appointee. Peterson voted for the bowling alley; Anglin, against.

Both men say they "often" vote with each other, but not this time. Why not? The answer to that question suggests that the fight over the fate of Lowest Greenville is only just beginning. Because, as Anglin says, a vote for the bowling alley-bar-restaurant in the former Beagle space next to Good Records would have shown that the CPC believes Lowest Greenville avenue is "a regional entertainment venue," despite the fact it's zoned for community retail.

To have voted for the project, Anglin says, "would have had very unfortunate, negative impacts on the surrounding neighborhood and established a precedent for this kind of use. It was a difficult vote for everyone. But I decided to go on the side of protecting the neighborhood from what looked like a very large, impactful entertainment use that would draw people from the region rather than just the community."

But as far as Peterson's concerned, the bowling alley would have served as a transition from the "old" Greenville to the one envisioned by Angela Hunt, Pauline Medrano and those who spent much of last year crafting the Lower Greenville Planned Development District ordinance.

"I think it's a good idea," Peterson says of the proposal. "You can't go from A to Z without doing C, D, E, F and G. This is a step. If we have a bowling alley, a food court, a Walmart Marketplace or whatever at the other end, you have three outstanding venues that will be open during the day and bring people during the day. Libertine will start opening more during the day. Mextopia will open more during the day, but you can't get there without having a draw. ... If Angela sounds frustrated, so am I."

Both men agree: The neighbors would prefer to see most of the existing bars gone -- or, if nothing else, closed by midnight. They've spoken to neighbors who want only retail, most during daylight hours. That, says Peterson, "is not going to happen in my lifetime, and I'm hoping to be around 15, 20 more years."

But Anglin insists something like it is viable, if not necessarily likely.

"Daylight retail is part of the mix of uses people have always wanted to see be there," he says. "But it all could be evening and nighttime uses, and it doesn't have to be retail products. It could be offices, restaurants, music halls, things like that. The idea would be to have a more generalized mix of uses during the day that would include daytime and evening uses. But philosophically, if the city wants an area to become a regional entertainment draw, it needs to provide the infrastructure to support that. They'd build structured parking so they could consume hundreds of cars. The West Village has done that. When you go to the Magnolia you park in the garage. I am not saying people want West Village on Lowest Greenville, but that's an example locally of the city putting in infrastructure -- parking garages, DART rail, whatever -- that supports regional entertainment. Deep Ellum is one. Victory Park is another."

Peterson's worried, though, that the PD will be used to chase all the bars from Greenville, even ones like Libertine and Zubar, which had to fight for their SUPs earlier this month. Which, he says, was not at all the point of the SUP process.

"The neighbors would like to not see anything open past midnight," he says. "They don't care what it is, and when they fight against giving Libertine, Zubar or Harp & Crown getting an SUP, I'm sorry, those are easy people to approve, and they don't want them to have it? I become less than sympathetic. ... The SUP was not meant by any stretch of the imagination to solve the problems of Lower Greenville, nor was it meant -- and I sat in on all the discussions -- to keep out new businesses, late-night-serving businesses. ... One of the five requirements -- you have to have a track record -- was not meant to keep out new businesses. It means existing ones have to prove they're a good neighbor."

"But take a neighborhood like Lower Greenville, which was set up to provide community retail services -- a mix of all-day uses -- surrounded by densely populated single- and multi-family dwellings," Anglin says. "We have to be careful we moderate our impact on neighborhoods as we grow. Dallas will grow. Dallas will change. And it'll either do so in an unplanned way or a planned way. I am not trying to elevate this one question, this one application of the ordinance, into the future of Dallas. But it was a difficult case to decide, and very intelligent people ended up on two sides."

In coming days, Madison Partners and would-be operator Brooke Humphries will have to decide if they're going to appeal the no vote to the Dallas City Council, which would have to give a 3/4 in-favor-of for the project to move forward.
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LG4life...
LG4life...

I say put a fence up around the entire LOWEST GREENVILLE AREA, and make it bourbon street esque.

"Thug heaven".  Screaming thug till I die before I pass out............haha.

I own a 400k house there and I dont care.......either way.  I can voite with my feet, money, and just cab it to some@twitter-59956594:disqus where else.

DE was dead by mid 90's aside from Curtain Club.  And just came back with some major help. 

Dont act like its going to be easy.

Bigmac Tony
Bigmac Tony

Since when has Cuidad de Dallas ever given a shit about 'the future?'

Billy MacLeod
Billy MacLeod

Next Headline: Bowlng for SUP plays Lower Greenville.

holman
holman

You cannot at once assert that a bowling alley-themed restaurant/bar would be a regional draw then reject it as a "gimmick" to get around a midnight closing ordinance.

Cliff Dweller
Cliff Dweller

Mr. Anglin is not at all concerned about the regional nature of other locations like, say, Bishop Arts in his own backyard.  That area too, is designed to be community-serving but has been pushed beyond its designed capacity.

Jpgreenan
Jpgreenan

Too bad Don Meredith still isn't with us. It's time to turn out the lights, cause the party is over. Reading through the comments makes it clear that the neighborhood won't accept any type of retail that would actually be willing to locate on Lower Greenville.

Might as well convert everything to housing. Maybe a bar or restaurant or two can survive just on local business, but that going to be about it.

It makes me sad, because Lower Greenville used to be pretty interesting, although just about all the places I used to patronize--Whole Foods, Poor Davids, the Flying Saucer, the Arcadia, etc.--are gone now anyway. When everything is closed, LG will be just one more place like Lake Highlands or Frisco--fine if all your time is spent working and raising kids, but sucky for adults.

It won't really affect me, because I'm moving downtown, but it's another reason I'm beginning to regret building my life in Dallas. Maybe when I retire I'll move to Austin, or Portland, or Seattle (there's no way I can afford San Franciso or New York). Some place that isn't ashamed to be a real city with all the life and chaos that implies.

Bryan Coonrod
Bryan Coonrod

with the thinking they have it seems that they are making a case that you could move to an area known for tejano clubs, gay bars or whatever then complain that they are there because your offended by them....makes no sense

Lg Resident
Lg Resident

When I read this article, I was quite disappointed to see what Commissioner Peterson had to say about the residents who live around Lowest Greenville Ave.  I am hoping that this reporter took his comments out of context because the only other explanation is that he truly lacks an understanding of the people who live in the area.  I have lived on Lower Greenville for over 10 years, and I regularly do business there.  No, we don't all hate the bars.  No, we don't all want Greenville to become a daytime-only assortment of businesses (or worse, vacant).  And No, we don't all hate bowling alleys.   

As the folks at Madison Partners well know, this "bowling alley" proposal included three stories of bar space (including a rooftop deck with amplified sound until 2 am) with a mere 6 bowling lanes, which comprised only part of the first floor of the building. Make no mistake about it - this "bowling alley" was a 12,000 sq. ft. bar with a few bowling lanes.  So why all did all of the neighborhood associations on Lowest Greenville oppose this "bowling alley?" I'm guessing it is because under Madison Partners' ownership, the building at issue has hosted other large bar businesses much like the one being proposed here that generated a tremendous amount of noise complaints, property crime and sometimes violent crime, all of which spilled over into the adjacent residential areas. And not only did the 6 neighborhood associations oppose the SUP application as presented, the adjacent property owners also voted against it.  Commissioner Peterson ignored the input from everyone except Madison Partners when he voted for this SUP, and thankfully the other Commissioners (a) read the ordinance; (b) enforced it and (c) listened to their constituents when they denied the SUP.  I sincerely hope Angela Hunt and the Council take a page out of their book!   

Speaking of the Lowest Greenville PD - I am disappointed and, frankly, a little confused that the very people who wrote it and pushed it through the Plan Commission and City Council (i.e., Commissioner Peterson and Councilmember Hunt) seem so reluctant to enforce it now.  For example, the ordinance that Peterson and Hunt supported requires operators to be in compliance with city code and the city parking ordinance.  That doesn't seem so unreasonable to me.   Most of the applicants for SUPs and many other operators on Lowest Greenville are neither in compliance with city code nor the parking ordinance.  (Madison Partner's games with parking on Lowest Greenville are a story for another time!)  

I often hear people say, "well, you moved to Lower Greenville so what are you complaining about?"  Frankly, there is some merit to that sentiment; however, in some instances, that statement isn't so fair.  For instance, when I moved here 10 years ago, there were no rooftop desks with live bands and amplified sound until 2 am.  These decks alone generate a significant amount of noise for surrounding properties that didn't exist before in the history of Lower Greenville.  And these decks intensified the use of these buildings without creating additional parking, pushing the parking (and crime) further into the neighborhood.

Characterizing the neighborhood associations as a bunch of crazy cranks is wholly unfair and demonstrates a genuine lack of information of the part of people who make such baseless accusations.  Isn't that sort of like characterizing all of the businesses on Lowest Greenville as gang-banger bars?  They aren't of course.  If fact, most of the businesses are operated by responsible, respectful people.  While the neighborhood interests may not always be aligned with the operators on Lowest Greenville, the majority of the residents would like to see Lowest Greenville thrive - we like the idea of a food truck park, we think the neon sign park sounds cool, and we sincerely, hope m ost of these businesses make it through the construction on Greenville right now.  We also want to get rid of the handful of bad operators who generate a significant amount of the crime on Lowest Greenville.  And we want to clean up some of the code and parking issues that have plagued this area for years.  If this was your neighborhood and you bothered to learn about the issues, wouldn't you want the same?  Wouldn't you at least understand why neighborhood residents would? 

There has to be a balancing of the interests between people who have invested heavily to live on Lower Greenville and business owners who have invested in Lower Greenville.  Yeah, as Mick Jaggar once said, you don't always get what you want. 

So, come on Madison Partners, Commissioner Peterson, Councilmember Hunt, operators and neighborhood leaders - roll up your sleeves, consider the other sides' perspectives and try working together and compromising to improve an area of Dallas with a rich history and tremendous potential.

RTGolden
RTGolden

Just because the NA's have valid concerns and good points doesn't mean they're not crazy cranks.  Face it, to most of the city, Avi IS lowest greenville.  I haven't lived in the city for very long, and I'm not really an LG kind of person, but I see it as unreasonable that the NA's take such an entrenched view of things.  They're hoping for a Disney-topia of fantastic neighborhood commerce and will accept nothing less.  I've visited LG, DE and West end and found all of them to be somewhat stagnant.  Long-time residents tell me DE used to be pretty cool.  When I got here, it was a dead-from-the-dick-up blight on the city.  Lowest Greenville seems to be heading in that direction.

Bob Loblaw
Bob Loblaw

Agree with Mr. Danger.  The residents are against everything except some non-existent ideal business. And if the perfect business existed, it wouldn't locate there.  The residents have earned what they have,--vacant, dark buildings.  Or businesses that are so scary that they don't care what the neighbors think.  To the people who proposed the project,--it sounded great,--but I have to think you'd be smart to abandon it.

Clay
Clay

WE WANT NEW BUSINESSES FOR THE COMMUNITY AND NEIGHBORHOOD, OH WAIT NEVERMIND THERE ISN'T ANY PARKING.

uh what?

Clay
Clay

the fact that the "neighborhood associations" are concerned about parking means they really don't care about what the anyone who lives down here wants. 

I have lived here for the past 5 years, move down here pre-ROP for the lifestyle, entrainment and walkablity. I don't know many others that share the options in this article, but we rent so we are hosed. I'll just keep going to Deep Ellum, Bishop Arts, Henderson, and Lakewood when I want to do anything other than watch empty buildings gather dust.

ugh

rumpunch
rumpunch

I live in the area and parking is the least of my concerns.  Yes it sucks, but it has always sucked.  I moved there for the same reasons, lifestyle, entertainment and walkability.

Jon Hetzel stated at the first meeting that he doesn't need the commissions permission to open the bowling alley since it fits into the current zoning.  That is true.  The only thing that he needs permision to do is stay open till 2am.  He also wants a permit to do that for 5 years.

I want the bowling alley, however I feel like I am in a mail order bride situation.  She may not be as pretty as the picture and may be a bitch, but I cannot meet her until I agree to get married.  Jon, I want the bowling alley and other fun places on Greenville, I just would like to date a while first.

rumpunch
rumpunch

Both sides (NA v MP) have drawn lines in the sand.  Hopefully compromise will come.  I can't and won't speak for the "neighborhoods", but as a resident I am not opposed to late night business.  Rather, the SUP is a tool to reward good businesses. Its like with kids, the businesses will have to prove they will behave till midnight before we can let them stay out till 2. 

Clay
Clay

It comes across that way that there isn't more push to come to an agreement. And the reasons the "neighborhood" cites in these meetings and interviews are above and beyond not wanting them open past 2am.

they aren't trying to say we don't want it, but they also aren't opening there arms saying ..please come, we welcome you, just don't keep me up past the 10'o clock news..

rumpunch
rumpunch

Finally someone who sees what I have been trying to say.  I have no idea why they are misrepresenting.  I would assume that since Madison has said we are open till 2am for 5 years or nothing.  By saying no to the 2am bit, then we must want nothing.  Since in the end we get nothing, people assume that is what we want.

anonymous1
anonymous1

For those of you at the hearing, you never heard the neighborhood say they DIDN'T want the bowling alley.  Listen to the tape for yourselves.  It's public record.  It would be factually inaccurate to report otherwise.  My understanding is that the NA's and the CPC invited the operators and the bowling alley and the restaurant into the neighborhood during daytime and nighttime with open arms.  So who 's misrepresenting things and why?

fred.
fred.

A lot of outsiders here assume that all people in East Dallas are of one monolithic opinion. WRONG - that shows you no NOTHING about East Dallas.  We have a little bit of everything and every opinion from A to Z.  Sort of the same types who think all Lower Greenville is crime-ridden and all Dallas schools are bad.  In other words - ignorance.

Justin Julian
Justin Julian

Dear Madison Partners,

As has been said here, bring your alley to Deep Ellum.  It will be appreciated and populated as the community continues its rise from the ashes.  Get involved with the Deep Ellum Enhancement folks, take part in the Deep Ellum Outdoor Market as sponsors, and you'll see a steady and healthy patronage.

tl;dr: screw LG, DE is the place to be.

Watching
Watching

If Michael Northrup and Neil Emmons are against it, then it must be a good idea.  With the exception of a couple of private parties, I haven't been to any business on Greenville Ave in years.  I hope these developers go to the council.   It's Hunt's district, and the council will not vote against her on a project she wants in her district.  Neil Emmons is an unemployed loser.  Northrup is just a loser.   Could be the Oak Cliff commissioner wants to continue Greenville Ave's decline.

jason
jason

In the comment section of yesterday's piece someone said something about the one lawyer who represented six neighborhood associations.  If this is true, was this lawyer speaking on behalf of those six NAs when he spoke at the meeting, or is he a lawyer representing six NAs but spoke for only the nearest few?  I'm trying to figure out how six NAs could fit in the area surrounding the proposed bowling alley.  If they are not in the immediate area, how do they get a say-so in what gets built?  Do they stretch all the way up lower greenville?  

Also, I saw someone ask what types of businesses the NAs would like to see open up.  I'm also curious to find out what their vision is, if they have one.PS - I really hope a Walmart Neighborhood market goes in to the old Whole Foods.  Fingers are crossed!  I think this would be a great daytime business to satisfy the neighborhood demands.

No Bowling On My Lawn
No Bowling On My Lawn

The attorney represents six NAs - Belmont, Hudson, Lower Greenville, Lowest Greenville West, Greenland Hills, Vickery Place - which all joined to support the rezoning in December. Hence, they get dibs on making their opinions known to the CPC.

If the landlords want daytime retail, then drop the rents. They claim they won't get daytime until there is a nighttime vibe. No, it's because the rents are $15K per month.

The majority of the residents in these areas are homeowners, with the balance (15%) being rental. If you are in one of the NAs and don't like what your association is doing, join and bitch, don't complain from the peanut gallery.

The neighbors did NOT oppose Libertine, Harp/Crown, and Zubar, and Peterson knows it. We demanded that they stay with site plans and show the FREE parking, not the paid valet parking. Libertine almost got nixed because of parking, not neighbors.

OED_denizen
OED_denizen

You are totally wrong. I was at the CPC meeting. Were you? They spoke AGAINST each and every proposal. Get your facts right

jason
jason

Like I said in a comment above.  This is what it boils down to.  I respected Rumpunch's thoughtful opinion when he responded.  The only thing I take away from your comment is the "don't complain from the peanut gallery" bit.  Remember, this is my city, too.  I will "bitch" as much as I want.  You are taking a lot of time, energy and wasted resources of my city to fight everything that wants to move in down there.  Again, remember, this is my city.  I pay taxes just like you.  

I wish you would sign your name.  I am fairly certain you are the same person from yesterday's and today's stories that has been coming up with catchy names to sign your posts as, and you are really just Avi.  The same old Avi.  The Avi, I believe, who fought another bowling alley that wanted to go into the old Carnival building.  The same old Avi that got involved in the Lee Harvey's neighborhood fight.  Enjoy your neighborhood.  And, please know that I will keep on complaining from the peanut gallery.  Your tone rings from on high.  The neighbors did this, the neighbors did not do that.  You are not god.  You just think you are.  Whoever you are...

Jason
Jason

"Archivist" (wink) - Thanks for that info. Yup, I realize how easy it is to search Observer's archives. I placed the phrase "I believe" in there because I only heard about the supposed proposal to put in a bowling alley at the vacant Carnival builiding from somebody that belongs to Avi's NA and opposes (despises) him. I didn't know it as fact so I said "I believe", assuming the reader's abilities at reading comprehension would catch that. Further, I am aware that the building was Newflower and now Mayflower. I divide my grocery shopping between Mayflower and Whole Foods. It's a weird concept to some but I have a strong belief in supporting local businesses that I like.

And, since we are discussing facts and word usage. In the above post by "No Bowling On My Lawn" (wink), I noticed a bit of wordsmithing when it came to putting a percentage on the number of people who own vs number of people who rent:

"The majority of the residents in these areas are homeowners, with the balance (15%) being rental."

I noticed the person said 'areas'. I find the 15% to be low and think they are including a larger portion of lower Greenville that is not in the immediate area of the proposed bowling alley. Drive a block east and west and the majority is rental. Go blocks north and south and those are rentals. You don't start getting into majority homeowners until you get beyond the adult living building at Matilda and north of that.

Just thought I'd point that out since you seem to enjoy references. Thought maybe you could find an Observer article in the archives to prove or disprove me.

rumpunch
rumpunch

The neighbors also did not oppose them due to the fact that they are existing business with good track records.  Therefore, we know what we are getting.

jfpo
jfpo

It seems like a lot of these residents want the sidewalks rolled up at sundown. Why didn't they just move to Frisco in the first place, where local law prevents any "evil" bar from staying open past midnight? Then, after they spawn, they'll already be in the "good" school district and won't have to move.

FPMC
FPMC

I really want one of those newfangled all-nude BYOB gentleman's clubs

MattL1
MattL1

Just one?  I was thinking more like ten...

Jay
Jay

I never go to LG anymore, though I used to enjoy relaxing at Zubar and grabbing some pizza at GAPC or some sandwhiches at the Libertine. The problem on lowest Greenville wasn't ever as bad as the hooplah made it out to be. It was ALWAYS the ignorant neighbors blowing everything out of all reasonable proportions. There's enough police STILL around on Friday and Saturday to patrol a few blocks of fucking Baghdad. If you've not been that is not an exaggeration. The situation on this stretch of Greenville NEVER warranted this response. Similarly, this proposal doesn't warrant the response that it's getting. The problem here was never the thugs who constituted 1% of the regional visiting population (a vocal 1% but 1% nonetheless). It was never the bars. It was always the screwed up expectations of the local residential population, fueled by insular fears and racism, leading to a hostile atmosphere in-conducive to effectively solving any of the problems the community faced in concert with regional visitors, police, developers, and local establishments. I was opposed to the SUP from the beginning because any fool could see it wouldn't solve any of these problems. These people want a neighborhood for which there is no organic demand and all the streetscaping in the world won't fix that. Who in their right mind would risk investing money in this stretch of property? 

With all the red tape now added to terrible infrastructure and the unwelcoming neighborhood associations. It's just not a good investment when compared to other areas of town. These people are killing their own neighborhood. All of this to bring in daytime retail opportunities which were supposedly stifled by "problems" that plagued the neighborhood after 2am...one of the biggest jokes in the history of the city.

SchluderStrip
SchluderStrip

"But I decided to go on the side of protecting the neighborhood from what looked like a very large, impactful entertainment use that would draw people from the region rather than just the community"

Translation:  According to Anglin, people north of Vickery Blvd and south of Henderson/Munger are NOT welcome in lowest Greenville.

I wonder if the Bishop Arts District would have been so successful if they took the same stance...

Howard
Howard

I make it a point to drop by Pearl Cup, Barcadia, Slip Inn, and Louie's, and when I think about it, I find it astounding that small strip of Henderson feels like worlds away from Lowest Greenville, despite their close proximity to one another -- literally within walking distance.

Downtown Resident
Downtown Resident

Agreed, Anglin's comment about attracting "people from the region" sounded pretty ignorant; as if thousands of people are going to be willing to wait hours for a 6 lane bowling alley. The small size of it would have kept it a neighborhood feature.

Tom L (No, Not That L)
Tom L (No, Not That L)

Yeah, that's pretty much what it boils down to, isn't it? Congratulations, Anglin! I live within about a mile of Greenville and Lovers Lane and I haven't done any business on LG for years and after this decision of yours it looks like I won't return any time soon. Just like you wanted!

Phelps
Phelps

Translation:  According to Anglin, people north of Vickery Blvd and south of Henderson/Munger are NOT welcome in lowest Greenville.

I think they will end up getting their wish.  Good and hard.

Drinkin Beer
Drinkin Beer

Lol Chris go back to victory park and punk some tourists will ya.  The LG is changing, which is why I moved here, but a bowling alley?! WTF.  Perhaps if we're lucky we can get one of those parking lot traveling carnivals or a dirt track raceway next. (Sarcasm FYI)

I pop a couple hundred bucks a week all within walking distance here favorites like Sunflower,Mextopia, Centenial, The C&H and good ol John's Cafe. Easy do do down here, and again, why I moved down here. However, there is a lot of $ on the sideline waiting for some of the crap that goes on late night here to dissapate. I'm not crazy about the SUP process, but honestly people were getting shot last year down here, Wasn't a war zone, but hell, that's a step beyond an entertainment & residential district.

But a bowling alley? That's supposed to "improve" a neighborhood?  Let me go spill some spagetti sauce on a white tank top throw on some flip flops and lets get hammered at the bowling alley every night.  I'm just saying, just because someone has some coin and an idea, doesn't make it a good idea.   Honestly everyone living here knows its a handful of Bars and patrons who eff it up for everyone. Pointing fingers at people opposed to attracting more of those problem folks seems a bit one sided. I've supported every SUP but this one. Just not a great idea. 

SCamp
SCamp

You mention John's Cafe. I remember when John's tried to move to the Vue retail space and the neighborhood opposed them due to their operating hours - John's want ed to be open until 7pm. When John's Cafe does not meet their type of businell. we are all in trouble.

jason
jason

Man, you "pop" a whole "couple hundred bucks a week" in your neighborhood (not very much considering you are shopping at a grocery store, a liquor store and going to bars.  I spend half that by just one visit to Teppo)?  Dang.  I don't know why all these people jumped down your throat with your crystal ball of what the proposed bowling alley was and wasn't going to be. You are definitely qualified to let us know what the actual intent of this business is.

"They have location which makes them successful  but both kinda suck IMHO."  This sentence was very telling, along with your wife beater comment.  You are just like the rest of the local neighborhood that wants to put your opinions forth and base judgment solely on those opinions.  

It used to, until right about now, frustrate me that lower Greenville was being slowly torn to pieces by all the neighborhood associations.  Now I realize it is a lost cause.  I feel bad for the restaurants and bars that will slowly have to go out of business (Teppo, Libertine, Mextopia, Single Wide, etc.).  I'm not sure what the neighborhood associations' plans are once lower Greenville is literally boarded up.  I hope they are prepared for apartment vacancies, cheap rent and what comes next.  

Drinkin Beer
Drinkin Beer

LOL Loved the crystal ball Comment.  Sorry Madam Cleo, but you read a post and find it as telling about me as reading tea leaves.   Heck we're likely two cyncial sob's that can type. Drop your coin where ever you want.  I may not compratively "pop" much, but hell, get divorced with kids in TX.  My wife beater and sauce stains comments are just one cynical sob to another, that and i really doubt that ally will compare to any of those nice links folks provided.  And yeah IMHO those bars suck.  Convince me otherwise. Heck, I'd put the Old Crow way above both. I'll buy the next round if both of those are open in 1.5 years. So yeah I still don't think a BA is good idea. Perhaps I'm too cynical. Perhaps not all bowlers are wearing a wife beater.  So, hey ya know what we need, someone to call us all a buch of racists next. because you know the problems are caused by <>  (Ok that's just blatant trolling, but like I said cyncial sob.) 

OED_denizen
OED_denizen

Wrong - the SUP REQUIRES the bowling alley. Remove or quit using the bowling and the SUP is null and void. Sorry but I have read the SUP and the conditions that Peterson read into the record.

jason
jason

Oh, boy.  That sure was a thoughtful, direct and sincere response.  That was very much appreciated.  

When you put it that way, and without knowing all the details of what went on at the meeting, I can see where you are coming from.  I solely base my frustration on issues of the past- Avi v. All.  And he always does it so well with complete reckless abandonment.  He has turned out to be the absolute worst spokesperson and most polarizing person for the neighborhood.    

I do wish the best for Lower Greenville (despite having wished a Walmart Neighborhood market on you).  I rarely go there even though I live within walk/bike distance.  The beginning of the end was when Whole Foods went out.  Now there is no Blockbuster.  It has become an out of sight/out of mind thing.  When I go to Teppo about once a month I'll then head over to the Libertine.  But, besides Teppo, there isn't a destination place for me over there anymore.  I used to go to the Libertine but they had a problem with bad shift managers and bad bartenders.  If I want Subway, I head down to the one at Mockingbird/Abrams, which is actually further away.  Lula B's is gone.  Cavern is gone so no more touring bands.  It's just not a destination, and I'm not wholly convinced one of the reasons why that changed is partly due to the Neighborhood Associations.  They've just seemed to make it harder and harder and harder.  They have managed to run away anything I might be interested in.

As an aside, throughout all of this, I can't get the thought out of my head that this whole thing reminds me of Republicans and their "No to everything, Yes to what only we want" mentality.  Just a random thought but one that I think is very fitting.

rumpunch
rumpunch

The problem is Jason, there probably never really was a bowling alley.  Madison learned last time they tried to get an SUP for that address that they couldn't do it without a named business.

I am not opposed to a bowling alley, retail, a restaurant or even a well run bar for that matter,  What I am opposed to is granting a late night permit to a concept.  We have no guarantee what will actual happen in that space.  If the bowling alley does happen, we have no guarantee that it will continue for the full 5 years the SUP is in effect.

There is room to compromise, however the landlord says a 5 year permit or nothing. 

jason
jason

I'm honestly not sure if I have an real opinion of the bowling alley.  I only know what I've read here since I'm not invested in the neighborhood outside of what I spend at the few bars and restaurants that are left.  My biggest complaint is that the neighbors (NAs and yourself possibly) do nothing but say "hell no" to anything that wants to go in.  I live in an adjacent neighborhood and used to spend a lot of time down there, a time when shows at the Arcadia would flow out onto the streets, take up lots of residential parking and more than likely have people peeing in lawns or behind the Char Bar.  (Somehow that history is forgotten.)  The neighbors seem to only say what they don't want.  Then, when someone who cares about the neighborhood says something they just say, "you don't live here, you don't have a say."  or the neighbors talk about the days when they could spend a nickel at the Arcadia and still have a nickel left for the soda jerk.

I mentioned this earlier and after going back and reading a lot of the comments I think that a lot of people who do care about this neighborhood are slowly learning to not care.  I am sorry but the immediate area stretching from Ross up to Belmont is nothing but rentals and condos.  Rented or purchased by younger people who will not be interested in the neighborhood very soon if it doesn't provide the environment they crave, or for the future renters who would want to move there.  All of those places were built (Vue and the condos on the east side) during the housing bubble.  They were only justified by an inflated market.  It will only take time (not immediately) for the condos to go vacant. If any of the neighborhood associations would like to know what condos look like after they've been sold or walked away from they should take a drive to North Dallas near Valley View mall.  Some of those places were condos built during the 80s.  I have a feeling that's not what they want their neighborhood to look like.  But, then again, they don't really care about the neighborhood.  They just care about what's going on in their vacuum world.

I don't think the racism thing has come up yet because Avi doesn't have a chance to call anyone "hoochies" and "gang bangers" in dealing with the future of a bowling alley.  I've actually been waiting for it so I could bring out my Camper Van Beethoven bowling quote, and am actually shocked no one has brought it up yet.  The song's been stuck in my head since the first story ran on the bowling alley yesterday.

Chris Danger
Chris Danger

You sir, are the exact thing I referred to in my first post, people who bray and complain about good business not coming to the neighborhood, then flips the perverbial "bird" to anyone who doesnt match up to your liking when they do.

Heres the way I look at it: Lowest Greenville is pretty much on life support. If you guys keep griping and complaining about who can play on your side of the neighborhood, you're going to have more vacant commercial space than you do now, as they'll move to areas (Henderson, Deep Ellum, Bishop Arts) that will appreciate them.

My advice:

A) Learn to accept the fact you're not West Village/Uptown and you never will be

B) Understand that many of the good businesses in the neighborhood will leave if you dont get off your high horses and accept the area for what it is, which is to say a mix of residential, commerical and entertainment.

C) Know that crime will increase and property values will drop like a stone if you keep pursuing this path.

Drinkin Beer
Drinkin Beer

Respectfully disagree Chris.  The beggars can't be choosers approach wont fly. The area is damaged but not on life support, we haven't had a shooting in months (yay?). 

I lived in Deep ellum 86 - 96. You know what it took to turn it around.  Wasn't SUP's. They killed it, and let it die.  Thats why I say the SUP process is not much better, but that people that live in the LG are trying something. I think that is a better approach than DE in 98-2000.  People just voted with $ and got out of DE. People complaining, and flipping birds is a hell of a lot of people fighting for somewhere they live.  DE people didn't fight for anything.    It wasn't until people started moving back to DE and fighting for it that it started to change.  Why do you advocate DE so much? Live there? Worth it? Hell yeah it is.  So are "You Sir" pointing you fingers at me for advocating my home while you advocate yours? With respect to good businesses, where do you think I'm spending that 200-400 a week? (Centenial, Sunflower is a good guess, but really I spread it around.  I don't cook, and my hobby is drinkin.) My point is if it dies it's not becuase people sat on thair backsides.  Could we who livehere kill it by not compromising, yeah I'll agree with that too. But if the only risk is letting die on it's own or killing it, I'd rather try, and all they ask of me is patronage of places I frequent and voting for 'em when the SUP comes up.  

I'm not looking for a 3-5 year return on my investmets here.   This is about quality of living, aka being close to where I drink and play. If I blow equity cause the area tanks, screw it. I know 100% what I moved here for and the good and bad of walking 145 steps to my first beer.  Restaraunts, Bars and the majority of what I need within 1 mile.  I don't need a Viliage, Uptown or Victory.  Like I said, I have voted (Becuase I get one living in within 150 yrds of many establishments) in Favor of the SUP's (I think there were 4 or 5)  but I still don't think a BA is a great idea, can't vote for that one.  

Drinkin Beer
Drinkin Beer

LOL pissed of the bowlers.  Yeah, I have been to a "Modern" alley.  Not bad, but I don't believe that's what will actually be built here.  Look at the building.  You're looking at a retrofit and refurbish to bring it up to the lowest level of "modern" alley standards with an upfront cost of more than that building is worth.  Look at the bars owned by this proposal team (Barcadia and BeautyBar) They have location which makes them successful  but both kinda suck IMHO. My point is, there is no real ROI in a "modern" alley here, unless you sell a crazy amount of alcohol, which I'll gladly contribute to, or you cut the "Modern" and make it like Barcadia.  (Damn, I'm just about to insult the barcadia and beauty bar folks)You cut the modern you get an every day bowling alley, pass my wife beater please.  Hey perhaps I'm wrong, I just don't fall for pretty pictures some artist painted. 

I'd really they rather just make it a bar, put up some big screens, serve good beer, and a decent cheesburger. But I don't think that's what it will end up, and I don't believe we'll see a "modern" bowling alley either..  

And Subby, yo bro, by your logic lets get drunk open a strip club between a church and a schoolyard, can't find a city zoning process for that can we? I promise we'll be great neighbors.

Coleman
Coleman

Uhhh Barcadia and Beauty Bar both are really nice bars. and besides that, one of the nicest bowling alleys in Texas (The Highball in Austin) is in a fucking strip mall (as evidenced here: http://bit.ly/qzEjWN).

uninformed and scared of change...yeah, you sound like you live in the neighborhood.

Phelps
Phelps

However, there is a lot of $ on the sideline waiting for some of the crap that goes on late night here to dissapate.

That sounds a LOT like wishful thinking.

Neighbor
Neighbor

When was the last time you went to a bowling alley?  Have you been to this one: http://www.bowlluckystrike.com...

moderndrift
moderndrift

This is a similar concept in a neighborhood in Downtown San Diego that I used to frequent when I lived there: http://bowlevt.com/

rumpunch
rumpunch

The real problem is the SUP process.  If there were affirmative covenants which must be kept included in the permit, then it would be an easier call.  Basically, have an "out clause" in the permit.  If the operators fail to perform within the plan, the permit is invalided.

Coleman
Coleman

you've never been to a modern bowling alley, have you?

Guest
Guest

I could say many of the same things about some of the residential neighbors I've had. Is there a city process to weed out those bad neighbors before they're allowed to move in to my neighborhood?

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