State Rep. Bill Zedler's Proposed Creationist Legislation is Causing Quite the Big Bang

Except, of course, that there's nothing even the slightest bit scientific about any bit of Creationism. Nothing it posits is going to lead us any closer to scientific discovery.

You're not going to see any advances stemming from questioning whether or not evolution has actually occurred. That's as silly as questioning whether gravity really exists. Gravity does exist, and I can actually show you gravity at work. Similarly, evolution is real, and you can observe evolution for yourself if you want to raise a number of generations of fruit flies.

There are actual, legitimate scientific questions about the mechanisms by which evolution occurs, and those questions will continue to advance evolutionary theory. However, at no point are those questions going to ask the question that creationism posits, which is whether evolution has occurred at all. Just as work into the nature of gravity focuses on trying to discover how gravity is exerted, not if gravity really exists at all.

If something drastic comes about, we could have to change our perceptions tomorrow about whether evolution is occurring. It could be that all evolutionary changes have suddenly halted and every creature on the planet will be identical clones of their parent organisms without any further change, but this is as likely as waking up tomorrow and finding that gravity is all of a sudden gone and we are all weightless. It's technically a possibility, but it's not something that anyone with any amount of sense is going to seriously question barring some sort of catastrophic change.

Scientific discovery is not going to be driven in the least by the claims of creationism. Instead, it's going to be driven by the scientists who understand that evolution is a fact of life, and ask the important question, "How does evolution work?"

Tad & Crow, the reason I'm laughing at you two bumpkins is that you're not arguing with anything I said, you're just honking your clown horns and arguing with the terrifying voices in your head.

What I said was, "The funny thing is, though, any advance in the theories of evolution are not going to come from the true believers who have already staked out their intellectual political turf and are ready to defend it to the death, scientific method be damned. Those advances are going to come from people trying to disprove evolution who end up not being able to prove creationism but instead provoke new, far more refined evolutionary theory that satisfactorily answers far more questions with fewer logical problems than the old theory did."

What you two goombahs seem to want instead of a continually challenged, continually refined theory of evolution using science to attempt to disprove evolution is an ideologically hidebound faith you don't have to think about anymore. Not that, given the mental effort you've exhibited, I much blame you for wanting to avoid more.

It's pretty obvious you two don't even understand science, much less evolution, or you'd understand the role of science is to continually DISbelieve, not enshrine something as a faith to make hayseeds like you two comfortable.

My point, the one you missed entirely, was that, ironically, the very best place the next advance in evolutionary theory was likely to come from was the FAILURE of creationism.

Without those sorts of challenges, all science degrades into the comfortable sort of faith-based ideology that can stagnate and lie dormant for centuries, until some asshole comes along and starts kicking things ideas in the groin again.

I'm a retired evolutionary biologist, you numbnuts.

Exactly, thefncrow.gravity is a fact. Evolution is a fact. There is no scientific argument that things evolve. The only disagreement is about HOW they do so.

Sorry, but I don't have any political enemies, Lar' my good man. All I have-- all anyone can have-- is an intellectually honest view of the physical evidence. Unfortunately for people who need to believe in creation, there is no physical evidence for creationism, and there is no legitimate scientific criticism of evolution. Things evolve. They go from simple things to more complex things. The evidence is so clear, so overwhelming, so convincing, and so well supported, that no one is even looking for evidence to the contrary anymore, save those who desperately need to believe, for reasons of personal faith, that it can't be true. I'm sorry if this upsets your belief in the inerrancy of the bible. On a positive note, evolution doesn't attempt to answer the question of how life began, so its not out of the question that God got the whole ball rolling. But if he did, he did it with simple life. He didn't *poof* a man into existence fully formed. If you have a problem with that, don't blame me, Newton, Einstein, or Stephen Hawking. I'm afraid its all you.

Larry: "Would that be as factual as Newtonian gravity, Tad Banyon, or as factual as Einsteinian gravity?"

Actually, that would be as factual as the concept of gravity itself.

Gravity is actually a great example, because we know that gravity's existence is a fact, but we don't quite know the mechanism by which gravity is exerted, which we are discovering more and more about each day. Newton's theory of gravity and Einstein's theory of gravity don't differ in the slightest when it comes to the actual physical reality of gravity, they differ only in explanation of how gravity works.

Much in the same way, that evolution exists and occurs is a fact, though we don't quite know all the ins and outs of the mechanisms by which evolution works, which we are discovering more and more about as time progresses.

Tad Banyon says

"Evolution is as firmly established as fact as gravity. Every discovery made every day only strengthens it. The only people who don't understand this are wishful-thinking creationists and people who just don't understand science and/or evolution."

Would that be as factual as Newtonian gravity, Tad Banyon, or as factual as Einsteinian gravity?

Sounds to me as if any old understanding of evolution, Darwinian, Gouldian, or anything else, hell, not even any understanding at all, just a soundbite called "evolution" you can honk loudly like a clown horn is good enough for you, Tad Banyon, if its main value is to distinguish you from your political enemies.

Evolution is as firmly established as fact as gravity. Every discovery made every day only strengthens it. The only people who don't understand this are wishful-thinking creationists and people who just don't understand science and/or evolution.