Hanging Out With the Westboro Baptist Church While It Summer Vacays in Dallas

• The problem of trying to improve society with destruction of groups of people is that the list of people to hate always gets longer; just as the Nazis began with Communists, and ended with a list that included almost everyone. It's fine to have fun at the expense of the WBC. Let more and more people see and agree that hatred is stupid, and the world will be a better place for it. A beautiful example of countering hatred with defiance, pride, and, yes, humor, is going around YouTube right now. "I Will Survive: Dancing Auschwitz" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EUvo5OHH6o8 brought tears to my eyes and a smile to my face.

• Luckily there is no god to see this.

• @mark Word

• I am just posting up something, because I get the feeling Bill Marvel has an over-riding desire to have the last word.

• T. Rex, Phelps does not operate "in the shadows and cloistered avenues." On the contrary his strategy is to confront society in the most open and direct way possible. According to those who know him best, he regards himself as the last remaining true Christian, the final authority and upholder of The Law, surrounded and besieged by an utterly depraved society. What better proof of his own holy righteousness can he offer his miserable little band of followers than that a rag-tag bunch of counter-picketers show up? See how they persecute me? The phrase "by any means necessary" was popularized, though not coined, by Malcolm X. He meant by it that recourse to violence was an acceptable strategy. Do you want to argue that violence would be justified against "bad people and bad beliefs"? Which people and which beliefs -- besides Phelps -- would qualify for a violent response in your opinion?

• Anonymous, The goal is free donuts, and to hold Jesus accountable for the botch job he did on one of his flock's hot rods. Obtuse, some? And I doubt you would have posted that using your real name.

• If this is real, what do they think they can accomplish? What is the goal? It doesn't make any sense... Is this really just a photoshop job?

• Getting back to the original subject, I really wish I could have been there for any of the counters, but my time was spoken for that weekend what with all the church business I was taking care of. Had I been there my sign would have said "God (heart)'s bicycles". Fight BP, ride a bicycle.

• Daniel, Bang!

• THANK YOU, Rawlins!

• You fight cults out in the open, not in the shadows and cloistered avenues they depend on to stay away from scrutiny. Back in the "olden days" every church was untouchable and respected as a "house of the lord"...Many people of that generation STILL fail to see why it is necessary to confront bad people and bad beliefs by any means necessary.

• Marvin Gay - George Strait

• P.S. I am not a Bill Marvel hater, I'm merely having a bit of fun. So shoot me!

• All right, Bill, I'm no longer hiding behind my usual moniker -- Daniel -- but rather, hiding behind the name "Bill Marvel." By any calculus, this makes us moral equals. I look forward to a fruitful discussion of the issues of our day. Hey, how about those Westboro people -- wacky, or what?

• I expected this discussion to be more about Fred Phelps and less about Bill Marvel. My two cents: Let it go, Marvel. Let them have the last word. Anyone with strong opinions who isn't afraid to air them will have a few haters. Nothing you can do about it. Arguing with them only makes it worse.

• No Bill, what makes you curmudgeonly is your inability to even consider any other opinion or view than your own. Your comments go beyond mere disagreement and are wholly dismissive. And you show further arrogance by continually condescending into explaining concepts such as argument and discourse, that you obviously think no one really understands like you. Simply being a contrarian does not an arguement make. And furthermore, is arguing really necessary to further public discourse? Really? No thought or idea can ever be discussed unless we argue over it? If you really can't see any valid points listed in any of the postings above, then why bother commenting at all? Your point was really fairly simple Bill. And to do nothing but continually reiterate it and spew negativity over people trying to do something positive (even if it doesn't meet your standards of maturity) is pissing,and arrogant and curmudgeonly. And you should really get over being indignant for choosing to post your name.It does nothing to boost your positions nor make any others less valid.

• C�mon, folks. Like it or not, the highly respected & award-winning journalist/author Bill Marvel is nobody's fool. How there came to be string of attacks on his character rather than his sentiment(s) pertinent to this specific thread, (largely anonymous to boot) makes no sense. He simply offers very sound reasons why he feels the counter protest played into the Phelps clan agenda. Others, including me, I think, make a good point as to why, in this case, that might have been a tough call but a good one, nonetheless; to show up at the so-called 'counter-protest'. Anyone who takes the time to read or contribute to a blog should only hope there is someone who is as thoughtful & professional as Bill Marvel. For starters, you should read the book he just co-authored about a WW2 vet. It�s unlikely that, after reading that touching, kind, exhaustive interview research with an otherwise long-in-the-crowd-of-time hero, etc...... anyone could question Bill Marvel�s character or credentials. Hey. Disagree, even be irritated. But show some respect. For others & ourselves.

• Yeah, you got me billy. I linked to the wiki page and told people to read it all the while hoping they actually wouldn't, only a super smart guy like you could see through my cunning plan. Now that you've uncovered my dastardly deed, you can return to your sanctimonious name calling and creepy obsession with peoples names. Have fun deleting this comment DO.

• The person hiding behind "Anonymous" knows exactly how and where and why he's being dishonest. He wants us to believe something that is not true, and he�s counting on none of us scrutinizing his sources too closely. The tinyurl link takes us to a snapshot, one exactly like thousands of others taken during political campaigns by both parties. It shows the candidate and his wife with someone who�s donated to his campaign. Here the donor is Fred Phelps, Jr. But if you donated to Al Gore�s campaign, or John McCain�s for that matter, you too could get a photo op with the candidate. It takes about 15 seconds and then the candidate moves on to the next donor, usually with little idea who he�s just been photographed with. For the context of the photo, we have to turn to Anonymous� second recommended link, a Wikipedia entry, which I urge everyone here to read in full. It tells us that Phelps, Sr., supported Al Gore in the 1988 Democratic Party primary election because Gore in 1984 opposed a "gay bill of rights." Phelps claimed that members of his church worked on Gore's 1988 campaign in Kansas for that reason. His son, Fred, Jr., hosted a Gore fundraiser at his Topeka home and was a Gore delegate to the 1988 Democratic National Convention. That does not constitute a �longtime� friendship with Gore, and Anonymous knows this unless he�s a prize fool. Wikipedia goes on to note that Phelps soon turned against Gore, protesting speeches on behalf of the Clinton-Gore ticket. Phelps� congregation picketed a 1997 inaugural ball, denouncing Gore as a "famous fag pimp." In 1998 Westboro's Baptists picketed the funeral of Gore's father, screaming vulgarities at Gore and telling him, "your dad's in Hell." Does that sound like a �longtime� friendship? No, it sounds like someone who does not want us to know his name wants us to believe something about Al Gore that is not true. In other words, Anonymous wants to deceive us. Now, all of this may be arrogance on my part. And it may be too smart for some tastes. But it sure as hell isn�t dishonest.

• Putting the Gore discussion to bed: http://www.godhatesfags.com/written/fliers/20100707_San-Diego-CA-Al-Gore-Divorce-Oil-Spill.pdf NOT a supporter of Gore's. I do believe they ARE dems, though. Either way, hate is still hate no matter which side of the fence it's on. :)

• "And as many times as I've disagreed with Bill Marvel, I recognize and respect his contributions to the community His contributions consist of calling people cowards and throwing hissy fits if they don't use thier real name. the commentor "not as smart as bil" was dead on in his assesment."

• I like PIE

• You can hide behind "Anonymous," but you can't hide dishonesty. I urge everyone who reads this blog to check out the links offered by the anonymous blogger above, read carefully (only one has any text; the other is a snapshot) and decide whether Fred Phelps is or is not "long a friend of the Gore family."

• Because paying bills just wasn't quiet enough fun today, i popped over here to see what was up. People, do we really want to go down the road of ageism? I don't. And as many times as I've disagreed with Bill Marvel, I recognize and respect his contributions to the community as a long-time writer and as a writer/reader on local blogs. In short, some comments here are over the line. There's no reason to avoid heated debate, I think it's why most of us visit blogs--or is that natural result of participating in blogs. With few exceptions, people are never 100% in agreement with other people. So, what is the point/goal on these blogs? Sincere question.

• "I assure you if you asked those in this "cult" or almost christian fundamentalist who they most closely identify with and the choices were A- Democrats and B- Repulicans the answer will always be Republican." You assure us do you? I didn't see any reason to bring politics into this, but hey, since you insist, Fred Phelps (the founder of this "church") is a Democrat and long a friend of the Gore family. That would be Al Gore, former Democrat vice-President. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fred_Phelps http://tinyurl.com/32wl35x Hope you enjoy your reading about your fellow Democrat.

• Not as Smart, Your problem seems to be that I don't agree with you and that makes me curmudgeonly. Disagreeing is not arrogance, nor is it "pissing." I expect to be disagreed with, here, and I expect to disagree with others. It's called argument and it's a necessary part of public discourse. What points do you want me to "acknowledge?" That this counter-protest, unlike others that you concede generate unwanted publicity, is valid or useful? I don't acknowledge that, for the reason that the Phelps bunch is really a very small and unimportant group except for the noisy outrage they succeed in generating. What makes this bunch of tinhat haters so different, so dangerous that the merit such a noisy reply? There are many ways to take a stand against hatred and intolerance, most of them quietly effective. Several commenters on this blog have implied that not making a loud noise in the street is equivalent to endorsing the Phelps gang. On the contrary, making a noise only amplifies their noise. I think that's a very bad idea.

• Bill, your response is typical of not only how you have responded to this particular blog post, but of nearly every post I have read of yours in this forum. By which I mean specifically you respond by telling me only that I need to rethink the purpose of public discussions, without any acknowledgement of any points made in terms of discussions. That is what strikes me as the arrogance of your replies Bill. In my previous post I acknowledged that you may have something of a point in your belief that counter-protesting only gives more publicity to this group, but then countered with why I felt this was not a valid point in this case. Is this not what constitutes a "discussion"? And yes, I did choose to mock you and your replies because no matter what point is raised you seem all too quick to piss on anyone's belief or notion to the contrary. Which certainly gives the impression of a know-it-all that can't even consider anyones opinion that doesn't agree with yours. So, thank you Bill. But I believe I have the concept of public discussion down fine. And I believe I can recoginize the cynicism of a curmudgeonly old man as well.

• "What put the fire in this demonstration (in my opinion) was the recent release of the official GOP party platform of hate and exclusion". This isn't new for the GOP. At least not for the last 40+ years. They have developed the "them, they are the reason America is messed" up platform and used it to divide the country. They will continue to do so. I assure you if you asked those in this "cult" or almost christian fundamentalist who they most closely identify with and the choices were A- Democrats and B- Repulicans the answer will always be Republican. They gladly share the tent with biggots and fear mongers. Also, the sign is greatness. The Duke DOES hate Devo.

• @Mark "What put the fire in this demonstration (in my opinion) was the recent release of the official GOP party platform of hate and exclusion". Are you suffering from a recent head injury?

• When you get out of a CULT, you want everyone to know how bad it is having to exist in that environment and there is nothing worse than standing by while bad people do bad things with no public scrutiny or attention. Should we just ignore those wacky Catholics and all their boy loving shenanigans? Lord knows it took Dallas reporters long enough to get a clue and take it seriously.. You can ignore the nutbags, but remember there are plenty who really suffer at their hands, and it isn't the families at the funerals, but the rubes who carry those awful signs. If anyone needs to see that there is another side of life, it is them.. One can only assume the haze of memory and possibly dementia makes everything "better back then"..even the protesting.

• I agree with the idea that, perhaps counter protesting gives the Phelps some publicity however, the Phelps actually do us a service in that it helps to keep equality in the lime light.

• Not as Smart, I make no claim to special smartness. I assume this is a forum open to anyone who wants to express an opinion or present an argument. Take my arguments for what they're worth. If you disagree, fine. But if the presentation of an argument you don't happen to agree with strikes you as arrogant in some way or a special claim to smartness then you need to rethink the purpose of public discussions such as this blog.

• Yeah, ok Bill. No one is as smart and wise as you. We get it, thank you. The Phelps people have been around for years and publicity or not, haven't shown any signs of going away. Sure, The people at the J.C.C. wouldn't want to acknowledge these idiots, but they have affected them by having to try to shield the children from their hate. But I would imagine they have to leave at some point. Is it better for them, or anyone else, to see such hatred spewed and no one around to even counter it? Some could even take that as complicit acknowledgement of truth. Sure, it may have been a less than serious counter-protest, but it seems that many were there out of a sincere desire to stand up against hate and intolerance. Is that really such a bad thing?

• The Phelps clan is a cult. The government needs to nail them the way they nail mobsters--tax evasion. Now that will be something to celebrate!!!

• Friday is the first time I visited the Holocaust Museum and I have Phelps to thank for that. Please visit the Museum, it was quite enlightening. I met an actual holocaust survivor, Thanks Phelps. I think Bill is wrong, he gives Phelps and crew, too much credit. From the media I have seen the story is much more about the counter protesters. 5 Bring on the silliness and peacefulness and show your support for the people Phelps is protesting.

• Well, Bill, most of the middle-class were complacent and complicit about sending their children to Vietnam for a very long time. Those who were being asked to fight rebelled first, not their parents. I can see that we could argue fine points all day, but I'll add this before signing off. Protest and standing in public is messy. It's what a working democracy really looks like. If you can find a few middle-class protesters who concede your point on how to protest, great. But there's no guarantee that guy with the Nazi sign or VietCong flag is not going to show up to protest along side you. Is he going to be excluded from standing in public and exercising his free speech? What if your demonstration is on the issue of tolerance? That could be a very sticky wicket. One measure I've learned to use in determining whether a protest has been successful or not is to ask whether or not the bar on humanity has been raised (however temporary that state may be). I don't worry about how much it has moved or why--I just ask that one question. If the world were to rely solely on respectable members of the middle-class to bring issues to light who are willing to sacrifice their status to solve the problems, how long do you suppose we would have to wait?

• I protested at the Holocaust Museum and the Resource Center so those employees & patrons would know that they are our neighbors that kind of hate isn't tolerated in this community. The camera crews will always show up to WBC events, because it's low hanging fruit for reporters (sorry Elliot) What put the fire in this demonstration (in my opinion) was the recent release of the official GOP party platform of hate and exclusion. It isn't too out of line with Phelps and his crew, so dismissing them as a fringe element isn't accurate. Also my sign was pretty god damn clever...

• Smarter, I can guarantee if every time these Phelps yokels showed up the result was...nothing, the media would very quickly lose interest and stop covering them. It's the promise of a counter-protest with all the noise and "clever" signs that draws the coverage. Phelps and his crew know this and are playing the game skilfully. MLK was not counter-protesting. He was protesting a very real and dangerous evil. There is a vast difference between amplifying the voice of a few sad, imbalanced "Bible" folk, and protesting a clear and growing social evil. For a counter-protester to equate him- or herself with the civil rights marchers is obscene. The marchers had targets on their backs; they faced fire hoses and police dogs. The Vietnam war came to an end when the middle class woke up and realized its sons were being sent to fight a war the government could no longer justify. The middle class sat out the protests, for the most part. Those marches that did draw from the middle class were massive, silent and orderly, free of show-boating. By then the fate of the war was evident.

• Bill Marvel, I think there was a lot of self discipline shown..none of those hick freaks got their faces punched, which is what they all deserve..better we find light hearted ways of dealing with the inbred interlopers, than violence. Sounds like you need some Geritol with that next cocktail..

• I read this complete article and I must have missed something because I didn't find out what the protests was about.

• Focusing on the positive, the Resource Center Dallas has a lot more money in its pockets today than it did this time last week. The Holocaust Museum had a record-breaking day. None of this happened because people ignored the Phelps' protest, mind you. MLK *did* say: "Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter." And this does matter.

• @Bill Marvel. To be honest, I am with you in spirit but let�s lay this out a bit broader, if I may. I, for one, wanted in earnest to attend the so-called 'counter protest'...not to be in the limelight or, God knows, lend credibility to Phelps� clan of rancid potted hams. But because of a post-op situation, I could not. I hear what you are saying regarding those showing up giving media attention to the attacking invaders, or even �get� your sneers regarding the seemingly trivial signs of those countering. I can absolutely see where you're coming from. But I'd like to shed some light on the counter-protest signs, etc. The comparison to war demonstrations in the day only go so far here as far as I go�and I certainly am a vet of early 70s marches re: Vietnam, etc. But that's not my pitch. I had hoped to stand at the Jewish Community Center as a show of support because I know a whole lotta of people affiliated there, many of them the children of Holocaust survivors. Or survivors themselves. There is, I felt, a thin line between ignoring trash like the Westboro Bible belters & being in the 'good people saying nothing' category. I weighed both sides but in the end wanted to be there. For, I think, the right reasons, not some show of grandstanding. If the Westboro plague had not tormented so many of the dead military during the ghastly funerals attended by grief-stricken families, I would ignore them, yes. Their loathsome anti Gay, Jew, military sweep is otherwise so incomprehensively far out of this world it would be beneath thinking people to even make note of them. Better to ignore them as if they were kids belching & farting intentionally on an elevator. But to attack Jews on their turf after destroying a dead soldier's burial.... lampooning them with signs that make mockery of their appearances has room for defense.

• we MUST MUST MUST rise up every time this cancer raises it's head. Do they want people there? Sure. Would the media still show up no matter what? YOU KNOW IT! The point of the counter-protest is to show solidarity for people who might be afraid to speak up for themselves. They always end up outnumbered by us right-thinking people. My signs say things like "Phuck Phred Phelps" or "We forgive you... you know, like Jesus would" or "my God LOVES fags!" (VERY popular at events) or better "YOUR God made fags!" If we don't show up & leave them alone w/the cameras then that's what will be shown on the news: a town where people get run rough-shod by backwards, non-Christian groups disguised as churches. When the Klan marches do you stay home too? What id neo-Nazis march? Pro-Life idiots??

• I keep using the word "diffuse" when what is meant is "defuse." Forgiveness requested. "Effective in defusing the hatred."

• "a self-discipline apparently lacking here in Dallas." Think this sentence could apply to many things, Bill. FIrst, you are predicating your response on a whole host of assumptions. I was not in attendance, simply voicing alternative ways of looking at the situation. One thing about protesting in the US, is that no one person controls the message or the group's dynamic. It grows organically. (The obvious exception being Westboro where members agree to carry identical signage and stand unified in their messages of hate.) Those who want to sit on the sidelines and say, "it isn't organized the way I want, I don't like the signs, I want to control the message," are always going to have grievances with protests. That is, unless, you can band together a group of people who will agree to your terms, which is akin to how the Westboro clan organizes. We have heard your stories of disgust with the Vietnam-era protesters. We can criticize their tactics and many layers of activity all day long but the bottom line is that the war came to a stop because McNamara understood that he was running out of young bodies to put in the grist mill of endless war. The Westboro signs--beyond the vitriol--are non-sensical. Why is it not sensical to counter with the same? As I wrote before, I think the messages were effective in diffusing the hatred. Would I hold a sign in public that read "I Farted?" As a personal choice, no. But it sure beats "God hates Jews." In short, it's about the protesters' mojo, Bill. If you don't want your mojo getting mixed up in other people's mojo, don't attend. But here is no need to put down the efforts of those who were willing to go out yesterday by suggesting they lack "discipline." They organized, showed up in droves, had signs, and were committed to the action.

• Protesting counter-, "They can't be ignored because the level of incitement that their presence brings" The level of incitement is Zero until folks like you let yourself be incited and show up. The effect WAS reactive. You payed right into their hands. There's another part of this counter-protest that is disturbing: The tone of so much of it is intended not to protest but to demonstrate how clever, how witty the counter-protesters can be. The counter-protest is not about protesting anything. It's an exercise in show-boating. Spend a little time studying the tactics and strategy of the anti-war protest movement of the 1960s and '70s. The whole point of all protests is to provoke a reaction. No reaction, the protest falls flat. This requires self-discipline on the part of those who are just aching to get out those signs and counter-protest, a self-discipline apparently lacking here in Dallas.

• I think that, as a counter-protest I'd rather see this sort of light-hearted pooh-poohing of the Phelps clan's detestable 'message'. Countering their mean-spirited message with gentle remonstration like this certainly steals what little thunder remain for them and shows them up as the deluded people they are.

• "The counter-protest is their whole point, their whole reason for being. It's the only way they can measure their effect on the rest of us." I don't now. They can't be ignored because the level of incitement that their presence brings--and the places they choose to protest--requires a lot of law enforcement. So, even if counter-protesters didn't attend, it's a provocative, attention grabbing proposition in and of itself. I like that the counter-protesters were so imaginative with their signage and that children with loving messages were on-site. At least the Phelps kids got to see their peers and other options in the mix. Liked the overall lightness. Tibetan Buddhists practice mediation on charnel grounds. I see this as something similar. If, as Marvel suggests, that the Westboro clan uses the protests as a way to measure the effect on the rest of us, this time the effect was not reactive. It was proactive; a great display of citizens exercising their free speech rights and their capacity as humans to diffuse the most vile, hateful displays of fanaticism. Sometimes in these matter, the professor hat has to come off and the "just do it hat" is put on. In the immortal words of Wilson Pickett: "There you sit all by yourself, Everybody's dancin', they can't a help themselves...But the beat's too strong-ong-ong-ong...So get up and shake that thing...You've got to feel it, feel it."

• Sorry, a typo on my part, should read: I just hope those kids are NOT suffering similar.

• "We love the support." said Alice Murray, the downtown museum's CEO. "But we'd rather not respond to [the WBC] and give them any kind of credibility." Alice Murray is considerably wiser and more mature than the counter-protesters.

• Nate Phelps, Fred Phelps' son is estranged from him and has spoken out against him. Sadly he details a horrible childhood of physical abuse, degrading and excessive punishments, and brainwashing. I just hope those kids are suffering similar. Happily he's grown past that and into a loving person willing to speak out. Here is a link to you tube video of him speaking. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JW2JgPMQdVc

• "There may not be any substance behind them, but as long as they continue to "protest" soldiers' funerals, they must be harassed and counter-picketed at every turn." But, Luc, that's exactly what they want. That's what they pray for. That just brings free publicity their way, reinforces their view that they're bravely holding the Truth aloft surrounded by evil. If nobody showed up to counter-protest, if everyone ignored them they'd deflate like a week-old balloon. The counter-protest is their whole point, their whole reason for being. It's the only way they can measure their effect on the rest of us.

• So, how inbred are those poor kids and isn't inbreeding enough to take them away from the phelps coven? Or do you have to kill your kids before CPS will take your kids away these days?

• The Phelps family traveling circus. They are over the top with the military funerals. somewhere in the bible I am sure it is written " Rejoice ye not in death" Of course since they missed "judge not lest ye be judged" it is easy to see how they could miss the former too.

• Our belief in the First Amendment is so strong, we easily tolerate these jackasses. We allow dissent, even when it's by a group without a clue.

• They just put Christianity into a bad light, it is a pity they choose to represent Christianity as a bigotted and hateful religion, when the opposite is true. SAD SAD Sad...... Congrats to the people who turned out to show them that Jesus' love is the answer!

• For sure, Amy, and the kids in this case will be right.

• Kiss me again, Monica Greene. Like all children, these kids will probably grow up thinking their parents are assholes.

• The really sad thing today was seeing those kids used as PR for these folks. It reminded me of Fish Camp at College Station.

• Maybe they'll turn up at Six Flags this weekend.

• Just maybe we should call "CPS" on the three adult's for ruining 14 children's summer camp, Teaching Hate, and child endangerment by engagement of hate against another religion. All protests have the possibility of erupting into violence!!!

• There may not be any substance behind them, but as long as they continue to "protest" soldiers' funerals, they must be harassed and counter-picketed at every turn.

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