One DISD Dad and Reason Editor Thinks His Kindergartner is Wasting Her Time
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That's why I'm calling for us not only to expand effective after-school programs, but to rethink the school day to incorporate more time -- whether during the summer or through expanded-day programs for children who need it. Now, I know longer school days and school years are not wildly popular ideas.Speaking of. So why, exactly, is Sullum so unhappy? Because, he writes, the DISD isn't making good use of the time it already has with its wee ones -- from 8 a.m. to 3 p.m., not to mention the (small? reasonable? perfectly acceptable?) amount of homework the kiddos get.
The total for the year, taking vacations into account, is around 1,500 hours, and that's without considering homework. (Yes, they give homework in kindergarten now.) That's more than enough time to learn reading, printing, and numbers. My impression, based on conversations with my daughter, the glimpses I've had of her classroom, and the work she has to make up when she misses school, is that very little of her in-school time is spent actually learning anything.I should really let my DISD kindergartner post a response, as he is already much smarter than I am be.
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I would have to agree. Expanding the school year will be a very expensive proposition (for a number of reasons, not the least of which is the need to pay teachers higher salaries).
Can't we focus on making good use of the time we already have? Taking a crap school system and expanding it will just result in a whole lot more of nothing.
The only productive thing that would come of more time spent at schools would be at-risk youths would have less time to cause trouble. It's a worthy goal, but the way to achieve it is not through more class time.
Posted On: Thursday, Mar. 12 2009 @ 12:45PMI'm glad to hear Obama say this. We have intense needs for daycare space and operators as we have increasing numbers of households where there is no parent at home.
Why does school break out at 3:00? So the kids can go home and help with the harvest? It certainly seems that at least in cities that schools should run till 6:00 with the only compulsory part being until 3:00.
If the kids have extra-curricular activities they can get picked up at school. I know I never smoked much pot AT school, so perhaps that could be nice. Hell, you could actually have discussions of after school programs, existentialism in Sponge Bob Square Pants or somesuch.
But the current school day seems incredibly efficient. The quality of Day care could be ratcheted up quite a bit in school. It seems most schools have playgrounds and other entertainments for childrens.
Perhaps we could let the teachers cut out at 3:00. Maybe they could stay and tutor some children who need perhaps more attention. I loved learning though hated school, it's not hard to imagine that letting the kids meander through schools, visiting classrooms of friends, compelling teachers and other beneficent time.
Again, I would allow this to be free to come and go in accord with parental wishes. What is so crazy about this? Isn't holding to a system devised during the agrarian age every bit as crazy?
Posted On: Thursday, Mar. 12 2009 @ 12:50PMPerhaps we could let the teachers cut out at 3:00. Maybe they could stay and tutor some children who need perhaps more attention. I loved learning though hated school, it's not hard to imagine that letting the kids meander through schools, visiting classrooms of friends, compelling teachers and other beneficent time.
So.. let me get this straight.. you think that having a large group of kids with nothing to do, with limited supervision (remember, you let the teachers out already), and all congregated in one area, is a good idea?
Posted On: Thursday, Mar. 12 2009 @ 12:56PM Robert, more than likely your child am have good parents. I haven't heard many politicians lay some of the blame at the foot of the parents. Bill Cosby does it and he is crucified for it.
I guess the more time some kids spend in the classroom the less time they have to spend with bad parents.
@Scott-
Are you clueless or high while writing this? Seriously. Letting kids hang out in the school without supervision or structure is asking for trouble. The liability of such an idea alone is madness.
You are correct that they are better off there than at home with no parents, but we need to separate the function of a school with the function of childcare. But until parents are held accountable for their children, this situation will not improve. Many parents think of school as free daycare and little else, but they are outraged when you judge them as parents and think that you're trying to usurp their authority.
Investor, my kid has great teachers. Great.
Posted On: Thursday, Mar. 12 2009 @ 1:03PMCan anyone explain to me why kindergarten is all day? Other than the Teachers union wanted more money?
20 years ago, kindergarten was half days, and it worked fine.
Posted On: Thursday, Mar. 12 2009 @ 1:10PM Robert, what a thought good parents and good teachers. Once again, maybe we need a license before we are made sterile to have kids.
@JF
It works, didn't you ever see Rock N Roll High School?
@Chris-
Parents (especially in cities) want all day just as much as anyone. It's subsidized (read: free) daycare.
I'm sorry, I was suggesting that you could have others come in and relieve the teachers. The teachers could either voluntarily stick around--I think many would for at least part of the time.
Perhaps we could hire a few more coaches and or change the schedule they have, coming in later and staying later.
The thought was that less skilled, lower paid people could relieve the teachers of discipline. Sorry for the misunderstanding.
This could mitigate costs. I would imagine this later phase might free up some classrooms for tutoring. I could imagine some teachers doing this for pay, with a percentage returning to the school's own budget.
Since this wouldn't be fair to poor kids, the feds could help with support for teachers who tutor those.
It seems silly to have these huge kiddy warehouses empty out just a few hours before their parents generally will get off work. Keep the warehouse open/or keep the doors shut with those monsters inside.
Posted On: Thursday, Mar. 12 2009 @ 1:14PMJF wrote "we need to separate the function of a school with the function of childcare."
I absolutely disagree. What is the merit of your metaphysical distinction? This is the very principle that makes no sense to me. It is just as rational as Charles Barkley saying, "I'm not a role model."
Well, not a good one I guess. But these are realities, but we like to make these declarations of principle yet fail to think about them much. My very point is that we should exploit the synergies of these two tasks. I'd further point that we exploit this for 75% of the work day. Doesn't adding the 25% only make sense?
You should be able to watch TV. Movies, maybe some killer, crazy crap that some teachers get into--John Waters, David Bowie films, Anime, whatever, so long as it is decent. Kids could go outside, the gym, Cafeteria, which is where I imagine the cartoons running. This would allow the classrooms to be freed up for the teacher's own little worlds.
(Our philosophy dept. was really small and we got make our own classes with our professors that always exploited their own niches. In many cases we were working on PhD level materials. It was compelling and hugely rewarding. I had friends into photography, less than competitive level sports competition.
In Canada they have public recreation and public meeting facilities in every neighborhood. Probably cause it's cold. But, schools really could become a rich community if we let the kids mix without too damned much structure.
Now there are repeated studies that show that the most effective learning you're gonna do is the self directed kind. But, schools are uncomfortable having teachers killing time on ancillary instruction. Well, these are in conflict, this would allow the other at least the time to evolve.
I think one aspect of the economic racial trap relates to this. If a garbage man's daughter really likes golf, writing, photography, gardening, investing, economics he may well have far fewer resources to call upon to foster that curiosity. Hell Black kids are far more savvy about economics than white kids. It's a question of jargon not smarts.
Maybe they could have an after-school class to teach how to write concise, focused, and coherent blog comments.
Posted On: Thursday, Mar. 12 2009 @ 1:41PMLike a jackass can kick down an outhouse, but sure can't build one?
Posted On: Thursday, Mar. 12 2009 @ 1:46PMPlano ISD has an after-school program (that runs until 6pm) called PASAR. It costs money, but it does exist (I believe the kids mostly do their homework for the day, but I'm sure they have other activities, too).
As far as I know, this has not resulted in the end of the world.
Posted On: Thursday, Mar. 12 2009 @ 1:55PMAmen, religion of bacon. Amen.
scott, are you the same scott that spreads the gospel according to Roy Williams on the Sportatorium? It would explain a lot.
To the point...kindergarteners in Japan learn algebra while it's an accomplishment over here for our kids to color inside the lines. While I'm not saying we should try to teach high-end subjects to kids who still pee their pants, more can probably be taught during the day as it is.
Posted On: Thursday, Mar. 12 2009 @ 1:56PMscott, are you saying that your plan is full of crap?
I mean, after-school screenings of John Waters movies? Don't get me wrong, I love most of his movies, but WTF? Or as JF asked:
Are you clueless or high while writing this?
Posted On: Thursday, Mar. 12 2009 @ 1:56PMMaybe Wilonsky will volunteer some of his after school time to teach kids how to become great reporters for any news media other than the DMN. Correction.....for any news media worth anything. Not too many around. Would the Observer qualify as a great news source? Perhaps the folks that blog on the Observer could help Wilonsky.
Posted On: Thursday, Mar. 12 2009 @ 1:57PMSadly RoB you're totally full of crap right now, and what's worse is you know it. Now your cute sophistic banter is cute, why not advance the discussion.
Why does the school day have to be all structured? Arguably pedagogy would suggest that student directed learning is the best learning. Quite a few of us watched movies in class and some did so outside of class. What if this were done voluntarily, because one teacher was into n. (I tried "x" initially and that wasn't really what I was looking for) but if only those kids that cared watched the movie, if there were available chairs sleeping in the dimmed classroom shouldn't be considered objectionable.
I don't know what your objection is to this RoB. Is it just sartorial? Your thread bare objections are beneath you.
Posted On: Thursday, Mar. 12 2009 @ 2:08PMscott, you are not exactly a walking advertisement for the benefits of an unstructured, self-directed education.
Why does the school day have to be all structured?
That seems pretty obvious. Many (most?) children (and adults, for that matter...), if left to their own devices, will not study or investigate things that they don't consider to be fun or at least interesting. There are many things that need to be learned that aren't, at least in the short term, fun or interesting. Therefore, an adult has to direct children to learn those things, because if left to their own devices, they won't.
Posted On: Thursday, Mar. 12 2009 @ 2:19PMIn Malcolm Gladwell's new book, Outliers, he makes an argument that more time in schools in exactly what kids need. He highlights a program called KIPP (http://www.kipp.org/) which uses longer school days and is apparently very effective.
He also talks about how much is "un-learned" during the summer vacation for students who don't have the time or money to continue learning during the summer. "For its poorest students, America doesn’t have a school problem,” Gladwell says. “It has a summer-vacation problem.”
Posted On: Thursday, Mar. 12 2009 @ 2:28PM@Doug-
You lost me at Malcolm Gladwell..... If you want to educate yourself on these issues, I implore you to throw his book away. He is written equivalent of Britney Spears pop music.
Wouldn't the school house, in those waning hours of the day, when children most likely would otherwise be getting ushered through traffic, sitting in day care, or at home in front of tv... Wouldn't the school house offer a more fecund environment than most children will enjoy?
Your point only reinforces my own. This is not a new idea for me, this is like trolleys for me. I think this is a hugely costly policy that, again, dates back to agrarian days. I did formally study education. The teacher gave us reams of data suggesting that self directed instruction is vastly more effective than any other means. Hell, you know this intuitively.
The extra hours would allow 25% of the day for whatever learning or rest the kids want. Call it free school. Do you imagine some Norman Rockwell America? What again are your objections.
I further would argue that I am able to make as cogent and sound arguments as anyone on here. You sometimes have wonderful and thoughtful commentary to provide, but your snide dismissive comments are a theft from all of us. I know not everyone is avoiding cold rain and wind that means work, but if you have the time you could, I trust offer so much more.
Are you afraid to agree with me? I always found the truth sexy in itself, I don't give a shit if it's inconvenient, embarrassing, and challenging. I like chasing the unattainable, I don't mind being proven wrong. But to just snicker, that is giving the game up to our most impoverished angels.
Posted On: Thursday, Mar. 12 2009 @ 2:36PMThe problem of Day care is hugely expensive and problematic for most parents. We currently subsidize millions of children to be picked up in an insured van and be driven to other private facilities that perform this redundant task.
The 30 minutes of transfer time is dangerous, expensive and not constructive.
Posted On: Thursday, Mar. 12 2009 @ 2:41PMscott, could you please explain how kids are going to learn subjects which they don't find interesting or enjoyable?
Posted On: Thursday, Mar. 12 2009 @ 2:55PMI'm a commenter with actual teaching experience. I taught at the college, high school, and junior high level. I find it rather amusing that Mr. Sullum thinks "reading, printing, and numbers" are the only goals of kindergarten (or learning at any level, for that matter). I'm amazed, actually, when anyone without actual experience in education explains how schools should be run. (If your kid's teacher told you how to do your job, would you be insulted?)
That said, there are absolutely terrible teachers and administrators who should not be allowed in a classroom or near children - and students most certainly suffer at their hands. Perhaps Mr. Sullum's child simply doesn't have a great teacher - or her school is centered around passing the TAKS (yep, even in kindergarten teachers are pressed to just teach to the test - not teach a subject). Or, perhaps, his five year old is normal and talks about the fun she's having at school (most "fun" is learner-centered) rather than going into detail about the lessons she's learned. Maybe those painted paper plates hanging in her classroom and the sandtable have educational purpose.
Posted On: Thursday, Mar. 12 2009 @ 3:17PMHello... RoB, that's my point. I am suggesting that the additional time would be completely voluntary. These kids would be welcome to go from the playground to the auto shop to the science labs.
I am arguing that our current curriculum is uninterested in the student's interests. I am suggesting that if the teachers--assistants and prospective teachers would likely be relieving those that wish to cut out at 3:00.
If a kid were to wander into a chem. lab just to fuck around most teachers could sucker them into learning something. Sadly, our current curriculum won't fan many coals of curiosity.
Do you know teachers? Many of them are delightful oddballs. And, how did you get that I was doing anything but the inverse of what you charged?
Posted On: Thursday, Mar. 12 2009 @ 3:22PMI don't understand: if scott is suggesting using the time between 3pm and 6pm for kids to do their homework, then what's the point in even passing out homework?
Posted On: Thursday, Mar. 12 2009 @ 3:36PMscott, how is a teacher going to teach (or even just casually chat with) a bunch of kids who are randomly wandering in and out of their classroom or lab at different times? And the logistics, much less the safety issues, involved in allowing kids to wander in and "fuck around" in a chemistry lab or auto shop whenever they feel like it are mind boggling. After-hours access to a library or computers maybe, but I don't get the impression that's what you mean.
Posted On: Thursday, Mar. 12 2009 @ 5:47PMWell, I suppose we'd see the emergence of chemistry clubs, drama clubs, a wider variety of sports (rugby, lacross, wrestling) and perhaps more structure is inevitable. It isn't as if having half to two thirds of the kids engaged and the remaining third wandering from the cafeteria or through the halls. Is that really that crazy an idea. Think of the relative savings of day care, transport and the like. This would likely be a wash.
Posted On: Thursday, Mar. 12 2009 @ 6:06PMIt isn't as if having half to two thirds of the kids engaged and the remaining third wandering from the cafeteria or through the halls. Is that really that crazy an idea.
I'm going to assume that that's to be taken together as one sentence/question...
Yes, it is crazy. The kids in the classrooms or labs are going to be constantly distracted and interrupted by their friends wandering past/in/out. A teacher will start discussing something with a small group of kids who wander in; then five minutes later, another couple of kids come in - what do you do with them? Make the first group of kids wait while the new kids are brought up to speed on the discussion? You know, there actually are good reasons why classes, or even after-school clubs, usually require that everyone be in the room at a specified time, and why kids aren't allowed to wander in and out at will. It may sound like some idyllic enrichment scenario, but it's just not practical.
Posted On: Thursday, Mar. 12 2009 @ 6:38PMWell RoB I do think this could be individually decided upon. You know Federalism and all of that. Each School district can decide for themselves. You are such an negative drain of life. With visionaries like you it's a wonder we got beyond scratching in the mud.
Posted On: Thursday, Mar. 12 2009 @ 8:04PMthe reason for expanding the time is so that they have more time to indoctrinate the lil' chirren in the evuls of bidness, the righteousness of diversity, why capitalism is wrong and much much more
Posted On: Thursday, Mar. 12 2009 @ 10:48PMAs a teacher, I will tell you that it is a myth that teachers are "through" with their school responsibilities at 3:00. After school there is tutoring, meetings, grading, calling parents, and planning. In one room it is possible to have learning-disabled children that each have an individual learning plan that means modifying for that student. Multiply that by several in the class and you can see that this is very time consuming. There are conferences with other teachers and counselors. It is not unusual for a teacher to leave at 6:00. He/she would not want to be a part of the "f**ing around" you speak of.
There are quality after-school programs, but they are structured. You need to research things before putting them down.
Posted On: Thursday, Mar. 12 2009 @ 11:46PMAnonymous, you might read what I wrote, and open your mind. How does relieving the teachers of classroom duties at the same time change that calculus?
Hey anonymous, you sound like a real fucking inspiration. If you're beaten down, you might move on you know. There are people who love teaching.
Sadly, I saw few people who loved teaching and their subject with any depth. Those teachers should stay in the elementary levels.
Posted On: Friday, Mar. 13 2009 @ 1:04AMscott, you suggest these half-baked, poorly-thought-out, impractical "solutions," and then when other people point out the glaring flaws and contradictions in your plans, you fall back on defensively dismissing your critics as being "negative" or telling them that they don't have any right to criticize because they haven't proposed their own solution to America's educational problems in a blog comment.
Posted On: Friday, Mar. 13 2009 @ 5:19PMOnce again, when the subject of education and all that encompasses becomes news, everyone has an opinion-and, rightly so. It is discouraging, though, to read the hatred and venom expressed about such an important subject. When that happens, on this blog and others, the topic changes from how to improve education to personal attacks from one blogger to another, not to mention general attacks on teachers, principals, schools, education. If bloggers would take a day of vacation a month and volunteer in any school to run that Chemistry Club, man the after-school computer program, set up a woodworking shop, tell kids about his or her job, take a busload of kindergarteners to the Aquarium or art museum, or any one of the myriad of things that kids want to know more about, their blogs would become more informed and intelligent, not to mention the real difference it would make. And, believe, me, almost anything can be made interesting to kids if one has the passion, desire, and knowledge to do so. But, instead, my guess is that the blogger whose child hasn't learned anything in kindergarten spends little time in that classroom. If I am wrong, I apologize. Spend more time. If the one who has suggestions for how schools should be run, particularly after-school, but also, during school, when he wants students to wander in and out of classes of interest, would volunteer at any school to start helping to make that happen, WOW, it just might. Don't stop having ideas. Think BIG. But, quit your gritching and become a catalyst for change by learning something about the realities of a school and today's students and expectations by spending time there. Our children depend on our informed and deliberate help. As citizens it is our duty. If we don't, who will?
Posted On: Friday, Mar. 13 2009 @ 11:38PM
