The city wants Deep Ellum full of apartments and a few selected eateries/bars that are appealing to the center of the road yuppie. It will happen no matter how many people show up. That's what history shows.

I'll be the NIMBY here. I think the Expo Park bars except for Monkey Bar are safe, and I like them all, and I'll support them. Go Amsterdam! Go Meridian! Go Fall-Out! Yeah. Bars like those are real neighborhood bars that the locals patronize, and they manage themselves and their non-neighbor patrons well.

Monkey Bar screwed itself when it started sponsoring the same rap and DJ nights that the cops drove out of Deep Ellum, but without hiring any security to police the events. Worse, they put on the events outside. I live on Commerce Street, around the corner from, not behind that Bar, and it really didn't affect me that much, but the immediate rash of petty crime and late-night noise that resulted from Monkey Bar's decision drove all those neighbors insane enough to protest the zoning.

Why do any of us still live in this city?

The reason why one of the bars (tomcats) was denied SUP was simple: they have contributed to a lower quality of life in the neighborhood. As a neighbor to the bar, the place has been a major pain when it comes to crime, drug use and general stupidity. We (neighbors and I) have witnessed fights, break ins, vehicle damage, ect. especially on "underground hip hop" night. Before this sounds like NIMBY, I dont mind underground hip hop or any of its variants. What I have a problem with is when you "act the fool" and become a horses ass in the process. I hope whomever moves in can clean up the property and make it a place where ALL the neighbors can come in and enjoy.

I may be wrong, BoHan, but Double-Wide down the street has had both DJ and hip-hop events without the extra security but they remain a thriving venue and have not screwed themselves. My times at Monkey Bar have been enjoyable and hospitable regardless of the types of music played. I can't speak for this "immediate rash of crime" but that's what police reports are for and there's always our civic duty to report criminal activity and noise issues to the authorities. To assume that an establishment has "screwed themselves" by playing a certain type of music attracting a certain type of crowd begs other questions.

I'm just saying.

Your friendly neighborhood Clubs Editor
Rich Lopez

Hey, I have lived in this area for around 20 years . Some of that was in expo park.
I spoke in front of the council 2 weeks ago to stop one more tattoo parlor next to my home and, if it had been needed, I would have stood up for the ones who have made a home here. They are good neighbors, I just think we have enough for now.
I will go to city council to speak for the good bars and clubs mentioned, and I vote against the places that abuse the area. I moved here in the mid 1980's for the ability to live in the city. Clubs and bars came a bit later.
When I moved to expo park in the 80's it was about residents. It was still only quasi legal to live in these buildings. Clubs sprouted out of nothing in deep ellum. they lived, and many died (or moved).
Deep ellum is and has been a home, for many. It can be a home for many more. The citizens who live and work and own here want many things. Many others think it should be protected for something it is not, Deep Ellum has been many things and it has been something else later. Thats the nice part. just remember that all places can become a neighborhood and a home.

Rich, we look forward to you moving into one of the available units in the area.
Quite a few are for sale. Doublewide is a good neighbor, and they keep the noise inside. I should know, I live about 500 yards away, and I go there a lot. Monkey Bar, not so much, which is about 500 yards in the other direction.

And if you think the police haven't been there and crime reports aren't being filed, you've just been on the wrong nights. In fact, Monkey Bar was a complete waste of limited police resources. Our neighborhood was crawling with cops, every night these events get put on. People got tired of walking their dogs on the broken glass that littered the neighborhood.

And yeah, this raises all sorts of profiling issues. Nothing you can do about that. If it was 80s hair metal and all the patrons were from Southlake and were up to the same crap, the problem would remain the same. Besides, you probably know of at least one of the adjacent NIMBY neighbors, seeing as he's in the sports pages all the time, and last time I checked he wasn't white.

Brian, you hit the nail on the head. I came here to become a long-time resident, All I ask is for my neighbors to be respectful to one another, be it Business, Club, Restaurant or Renter/Homeowner. Ellum has, is and will always be an evolving creature. It'll be this way for years to come

What sucks is despite public outcry there is no stopping this mess. The big boys w/ the money do what they want w/ a very well thought out strategy that has been in play for years now. They buy it, sit on it and wait. Example: The Knights of Pythias (also known as Union Bankers Building) has been in their possession for years. Although it is a protected landmark of historic value it has been allowed to rot and self destruct. When it becomes irreparable it will be torn down. They've been purchasing, sitting, waiting and allowing this area to become a former shadow of itself to a near ghost town.

From what I understand these guys have apartment complexes across the country w/ thousands of tenants that pay rent every month. Our city leaders admire that and thrive on re-election contributions. They have never grasped what it takes to make a great city.

"All cities have soul, but Dallas must have been at the bank when they passed it around" - the Austin Lounge Lizards

New York City has always prided itself on what it is and capitalized on it. New Orleans, Chicago, Nashville, Seattle etc. all embrace their regional culture. Fort Worth and Austin are perfect Texas references of this point. Sadly Dallas always sought where to 'buy' world class distinction.

I was in Memphis a few months back and there was a huge sign that said "Home of the Blues / Birthplace of Rock & Roll" This had me wonder about our town... "We Shot JR and killed JFK"? Perhaps this is a psychological aspect our leaders should quit trying to buy their way out of and just get over.

Anyway, apathy is not an answer, uniting is. So we're going to dress up and go to City Hall tomorrow to be responsible citizens. But just once I'd like to see those same folks we're going to see, dress comfortably and come hang out in Deep Ellum before its too late.

I hope they tear down deep ellum and put up a parking lot. "paved paradise and put up a parking lot"....and then they smash monkey bar's doors open and pour in cement. i hope they turn it into a huge new sparkling mall! with the gap and walmart in it! sweet.

I faxed my letter today. I'm planning to be there tomorrow. Don't assume its hopeless. If we don't express our view than we'll only have ourselves to blame.

I have a feeling the tide maybe changing when it comes to how this city holds itsself and its history. People are already sick and tired of how city hall is ran, maybe its time we all go down en masse and peacefully protest in front of city hall.

Take a good look around Deep Ellum and tell me it couldn't benefit from a face lift. Wha wha, all I ever here is a bunch of crying babies. I have been a proud owner in Deep Ellum for the past year, in fact a neighbor of the poster from earlier today Brian. I have seen a ton of changes in that short frame of time and so far I am pleased. The area needs a boost or it will always be stuck in the fringes of our rapidly growing town. The Trinity River project, all of the new sky rises, and the advancement of the DART rail is proof that we are in a time of great transition. So what if we lose a few bars, a few tatoo parlors, and whatever else is on the way out. What Deep Ellum needs is people, money, art, and community. Get to know your neighbor. Shop in the stores and eat at any of the great dining establishments in the area. Instead of more bars, we need a CVS or a grocery store. Deep Ellum needs dry cleaning, pet care services, a book store, more patios and a continuation of our art. Deep Ellum has always been a major producer of some of the great Dallas musicians, artists, and creative intellects. It just needs other means to bring people inside the Deep in order for them to appreciate it more. Trust me when I say "those people" will not come for some bar or club. The way I see it, they would have already with the bars and clubs we have now. We may not like what the folks with th big pockets are doing, but at least they are doing something. If everyone of the areas residents would get off our butts and say hello to a new neighbor, pick up some trash, and spend our money in our area of town. We could make Deep Ellum into anything we want. But, my guess is that most of us will just continue to complain and be stuck with whatever happens. If you want to affect change, do what Brian has been doing for years, get involved and make change happen yourself.

Unfortunately, in this rucous over SUPs, it's easy it get caught up in disagreements over what businesses should or should not be here.

Whether you agree or disagree, it doesn't really matter. Why? Because the decision is not up to you; it is not your choice to make. That is my concern, and I would hope it would concern each and everyone whose lives are affected by these decisions, but have little control over them.

Right now, any bar or club--no matter how well behaved--can be shut down by less than a handful of people. They don't really have to give a reason, they just have to tell City Council that they don't feel that the place fits in with neighborhood. The majority of the property down here is owned by a very select few; it is their opinion which counts, and they are rarely disagree with each other.

Now, generally I do believe property owners should be given some weight. However, other stakeholders such as residents and business should have a say as well, especially when the proprerty owners are primarily corporate entites that participate little in the day-to-day activities of a historically and culturally significant neighborhood. The residents of Deep Ellum number somewhere near 5,000, and there are dozens of business owners here, yet all these people's fate are controlled by just two or three.

Now, generally speaking, I do believe property owners should be given some extra weight. However, other stakeholders such as residents and businesses, should have a say as well, especially when the distribution of power is so uneven. The dominant landowners (percentage-wise) are primarily corporate entities, that are few in number, and participate little in the day-to-day affairs of a historically and culturally significant neighborhood. In contrast to that, the community of Deep Ellum consists of nearly 5,000 residents and dozens of business owners; yet, all those people's fate is primarily controlled by the whim of just two or three.

Both Gerrit and Scott make valid points when it comes to the neighborhood. Im someone who has seen ellum in its 90's salad days, as well as its current low-key environment. Gerrit makes a decent argurment when it comes to neighborhood services. I agree we need more conveiences down here such as decent 24 hour grocery store(7-11 doesnt count), drug store and dry cleaners. We also need less parking lots and more use of outdoor space. One thing 6th street has done a excellent job of is using its limited lot space to its full limit. Every weekeday, you'll see people sitting on the patio of places like Opal Devine, Maggie Maes and Shakespeare's Pub hanging out and enjoying a drink. I see quite a few lots around here with old gas stations sitting on them ripe for redevelopment of this nature.

I've been living and breathing Deep Ellum for the last two weeks, setting up an office on 2822 Elm St. that will soon serve as a visitor's center and memorabilia muesuem for Deep Ellum.

I've looked deep into the paperwork of the last 16 years. Great things were accomplished by the Deep Ellum Association in it's hayday. Since the split with the Deep Ellum Foundation, funds have been lacking, but the Association and Deep Ellum is no where near dead, or giving up.

There is going to be development. Hell, if a bookstore (hopefully Half Price not B&N) moves in, I'll do a little dance. What we DO NOT want is for the rich culture to move out for either of three reasons: rent going through the roof, competition driving small businesses out, or being pushed out by a select few with a "Vision".

Seriously. This is freaking America. City legislature went in last year and changed laws and zoning ordinances like they have no one to answer to. They made District 2 a Planned Development District which means that the nonconforming use clause (which is like a grandfather clause to protect existing businesses) is null and void.

I remember going to gov't class in college and learning about this thing called checks and balances. The city does have to answer to the mayor (who unfortunetally seems to be a cheerleader for these big money developers), and the judicial branch. Unfortunetaly this all calls for money and a lawyer. Of which they have plenty, and small businesses have little or none.

Guys this isn't just about some clubs. This isn't just about some tattoo studios. This isn't just about some bars. This is about a few people deciding for us what we should have. They could be targeting small restaurants, small coffee shops, or whatever and it'd still be wrong. This is about who has a say. The people or the government and monopolies.

Why aren't they trying to repair the buildings they've been sitting on and sell those? At least we'd keep the shell of history. Why do they want to bulldoze our freaking neighborhood? Why cn't they rennovate the existing area and enrich our culture? I can't even see Baylor from the office anymore. It's creepy.

Do you know Frank, or Bill, or Amanda, or Wes, or Carrie, or Vern, or Rhonda, or Allen, or Mike, or Eddie, or Don, or Beard, or Frankie, or Amber, or Kirk, or Rob Jr. or Gianna, or Mark, or Chad, or Paul, or Randee, or Rico, or April, or Jerleigh, or Nick, or Lucas, or Tom, or Havi, or Brian, or Aaron, or Sarah, or Kirk, or John, or Sergio, or Michelle, or Alison? These are real names of real people who I see on a weekly, if not daily basis. We make this area unique. If development is coming. We will still be here. We'd like to have a say in our neighborhood, since we are the ones who are actually here.

Here is another example of where my trolley proposition would be a huge boon. Deep Ellum needs traffic--that's pedestrian traffic not more parking problems. We don't need more police--goodness has anyone seen more police in this city than recently? We need people involved and engaged. Pedestrians will create a fecund business environment that will create it's own winners and losers. We don't need City coucilmembers picking winners and losers, offering them tax breaks and unfair advantages over others. Laizzez-faire.

The security problems with Deep Ellum come from scarce parking, forcing people to walk blocks down darkened alleys and the like. A trolley running down Elm and Commerce would do the trick. This line would continue on to Exposition and Lakewood/Skillman/Greenville Ave. and into Downtown/Farmer's Market/Westend on the other end. Imagine being to closely linked to Uptown/McKinney/Cedar Springs and the Greenville district. Imagine being so close to the fun on Greenville and Lakewood. Imagine not having to drive (drunk), park, and screw with all that.

I have nothing to gain from this, I am a landscaper. I was born and raised in this city, and I know a missing piece of infrastructure when I (don't) see it. We wouldn't have to destroy any property, running the lines on streets. Of course, if we wanted we could destroy some property, like Hudnall and really build the tax base.

As a city, the primary goal should be to grow the tax base. A trolley would foster West Village type development throughout inner Dallas growing the tax base far more than a tollroad, bridge over a freeway or any tax credit zone. This fosters free market development and growth without picking winners and losers. Come on people, we can see Dallas become an urban city unlike anything in the middle of the country. Only Chicago, and the East and West Coast are similar.

FYI Dart has done the feasability studies on just such a program. However, I can imagine that DART tasked with the whole region may not be interested in a project that would benefit just inner city Dallas. As taxpayers we have a right to that information since DART used our money for this study. They didn't give me the information but perhaps Bob or Jim can file a FOIA appeal for the documentation.

Allison, Im all for keeping the asthetic of the area, esp. with the historical buildings. I also agree that we, the neighbors have to raise heck with the city council and get the media involved with this issue. Lastly, I believe its time we get DEEP, DEF and DEA together, damn the differences when it comes to ideology. Its time we all make a concerted effort to make it work with a plan to truly improve the neighborhood because we control our own destiny.

I spoke in favor of every bar/club last Thursday at the hearing where Tomcats and Club One were denied. I came away with 2 impressions of the process.

First, we all live and breath in Deep Ellum but I doubt very few members of the commission have actually even driven through Deep Ellum. I get the feeling the commission is ignorant of Deep Ellum and therefore are going to believe whatever is laid in front of them because they have no prior knowledge. Some people knew that beforehand and have taken advantage of it.

Second. It seems to me that a lot of phone calls and emailing must take place before the actual hearing. Scott and I talked about this a little bit after the last D.E.E.P. meeting. It seems to me that 80% of the decision to allow or deny a bar is made before the hearing. The hearing is more of a last ditch effort on the part of either side to sway the commission's opinion.

Finally, Scott and I talked about how the commission is really there to make sure the bar/clubs obey the letter of the law (SUP). It is the City Counsel that will look at the more subjective big picture plans for the area. I believe that the City Counsel is where D.E.E.P. and the residents will have the most say in what happens.

I encourage everyone to come to the next D.E.E.P. meeting which will be next Tuesday 9PM at the Deep Ellum Association's new office on Elm across from Cafe Brazil.
- chad

Chris,

"Lastly, I believe its time we get DEEP, DEF and DEA together, damn the differences when it comes to ideology. Its time we all make a concerted effort to make it work with a plan to truly improve the neighborhood because we control our own destiny."

that is the most insightful and correct statement i've read all year. you give me hope.

A CVS? Really? Maybe we should wait and see what that does for Fry St. first. Your right when you credit Deep Ellum for it's Artists, musicians and the like. Please don't overlook the talent that is still hanging out (albeit discretely) in Deep Ellum. I am always impressed with the creativity and passion that brews here, and find it everytime I walk down the street. But as we try to bring big money in, we're driving those artists and musicians out. There's a good reason West Village, West End and the like are not known for being cultural meccas. How can we allow ourselves to develop our culture and identity if we do not allow the local businesses here to thrive? Dallas seems to be very good at getting in its own way. If you want CVS and Dry Cleaning, wouldn't it be easier to move to one of the MANY other neighborhoods that offer that. As far as groceries go, I think we do much better than Albertsons can offer. We've got a cheese factory, a bakery, a butcher, and Farmers Market just down the street. It's hard to get much fresher than that. Deep Ellum probably needs a lot of things, but at least one of those things is more appreciation for what it has already got to offer (despite the odds).

I too am in favor of having a laundry, dry cleaners and small grocery and other buisnesses down in Ellum...

The first things traveling acts ask me once they've settled in at Dada is, "Is there a laundromat we can walk to?" The next question, "Is there a grocery store near by?"

Other questions I get, "Are there any record stores down here?" "Is there some place I could pick up guitar strings." "Is there an inexpensive place we can stay down here?"

My responses in order:

"No, but you can do laundry at my house tonight if you'd like."

"No, but Joshua or I can drive you to a market."

"No, but Joshua or I can drive you to Good Records."

"No, but Joshua or I can drive you to Guitar Center."

"No, but you are more than welcome in my home."

One day I'd really like to answer all those questions with a "Yes."

Someone commented about 6th street.

"One thing 6th street has done a excellent job of is using its limited lot space to its full limit. Every weekeday, you'll see people sitting on the patio of places like Opal Devine, Maggie Maes and Shakespeare's Pub hanging out and enjoying a drink."

Excellent point. Having lived in Austin for about 5 years, then living here for 3...the reason I don't frequent Deep Ellum is parking.

Yes, it's my favorite part of town, but I don't feel paying out the nose to park in a dubious lot, or parking a mile away to walk down an unlit street. I think a lot of others feel the same way, and even lower Greenville has this problem.

In Austin they have the "E-Bus". There are several of them that shuttle students from areas where students live to 6th street and back, and they run until the bars close. I think the DART station might be a good thing for Deep Ellum. I know I'd have gone down there a lot more if I didn't have to mess with parking, driving drunk, etc...

I think one thing is for sure, we owe mr Wilonsky a great debt. He continues to make us all talk and think. Yell and laugh. Robert actually empowers us to speak up about the area we care, live or hope for. It has obviously given folks a voice, something Deep Ellum, no matter what you feel, needs.

Many were present and accounted for the city planning "meeting". Mostly owner/operators fighting for their lives!
One terrible and standout moment was the denial of Monkey Bar's Special Use Permit, effectively shutting many people out of their livelihoods, life savings, and right to operate in Expo Park and Deep Ellum.
Their was much talk about noise, parking, and element of people Monkey Bar attracts. Over the last 2 years or so, Monkey Bar has been hosting some of the best urban and hip-hop shows, East of I30. Was this one of the reasons they were denied a permit?
Great venues including Double-Wide, Minc, and others, are still on the chopping block. These places breath diversity, culture, and life to the area. Developers and land owners want to squash all that's special and unique in the area, to grab land and develop the area into another West Village nightmare.
All of the good things about this city are evaporating before our eyes, and soon there will be nothing left except Victory Plaza at Deep Ellum.
Everyone needs to support what's left of these great neighborhoods, through petitions, donation of legal services, mobbing city zoning meetings etc.

For the record, DEEP and DEA are pretty much on the same page with each other. We are separate entities, but work together often and share common goals for the neighborhood. Our approaches are somewhat different, but tend to complement each other well.

DEEP and DEF (I love that acronym) are not on the same page. We are not mortal enemies; where there is common ground, we will work together (after all, they control the PID money). However, there is not much common ground there. There approach is property owner-centric and they continue to exclude others in the community from giving input to what goes on in the neighborhood. Heck, they even tend to leave out property owners that don't agree with them.

I agree it is great that everyone here is talking about Deep Ellum. A lot of you seem to have some great ideas, so please come out and share them. DEA has mixers (one coming up soon - savedeepellum.org) and DEEP meets every Tuesday (www.deepellumenrichmentproject.org).

I would invite you out to a DEF meeting, but I am unaware of any meetings where the public is generally invited. Did I happen to mention how great that acronym DEF is?