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Bible Girl: The Unfair Park Religion Column

A Really Weird Day in Church

By Julie Lyons, Thursday, Dec. 14 2006 @ 12:44PM
Comments (23)
Categories: Bible Girl: The Unfair Park Religion Column

It began as a typical Sunday-morning service. Really doesn't matter where, but since you're curious, it was in a South Dallas church. There was an opening prayer. A handful of praise songs. A solo. Nothing that presaged much of anything.

By the end of the morning it would sink in that I'd witnessed something exceptionally rare. When I think about it today, I am shocked all the more. It's like the morning of February 1, 2003, when I bolted up in bed after hearing an enormous explosion somewhere above me, so powerful it shook everything in the house for a fraction of a second.

It was gone so quickly I wondered if I'd imagined it. I glanced at the clock: It was exactly 7:59 a.m. Later that day I realized I'd heard the sound of the Space Shuttle Columbia blowing up over North Texas.

This particular morning in church was a blast of truth, a concussion wave that split the air for an instance and was gone.


Then it was back to the humdrum, the hypocrisy, the illusions we inhabit. Truth is not a welcome substance in most churches today.

An evangelist spoke that Sunday, someone I know well. She is legally blind, though not everyone knows that. When people find out, they ask, "Well, what can she see?" and I always say, "More than you think."

Her message was about sin. Not a popular subject, by the way.

"Hell is real," she said, "and somebody's going there." I know her exact words, because I have an audiotape. It's dated January 29, 2006.

She talked about how excited she was when she heard T.D. Jakes preach a message on sin. Maybe now is the time, she said, when we'll take sin seriously. When that happens, we can't help but see miracles bust loose. Every historic move of God one can think of—the Great Awakening, the Welsh Revival, Azusa Street—was preceded by a scorching wave of sin-consciousness within the church.

In contrast today, she said, "The church world is sick."

At this point the evangelist started strolling down the center aisle, looking around her. At this distance she cannot recognize faces, just vaguely human-shaped blobs.

"If this house was full to capacity," she said, "and I asked, 'How many born-again believers in here?' Everybody would stand up."

She paused. The rhythm of her message shifted. "How many born-again believers do we have in here?"

Everyone lifted a hand or signaled their presence somehow. Then she sprung the trap.

"All right. How many fornicators do we have up in the house?"

Silence...but of course. It was a rhetorical question, the kind you don't answer.

"How many liars do we have up in the house?"

Silence.

"How many adulterers do we have?"

Not a word.

Just then a woman, a visitor, set her Bible down and slowly rose to her feet.

Every set of eyes snapped her way. A sort of rustle went through the house. I know I averted my eyes just as quickly. Embarrassed. Nervous.

The woman was middle-aged—trim and stylish, well-dressed. Someone who had it together, at least from the outside.

The evangelist caught her from the corner of her eye as she walked past. "Bless God," she said, a slim note of surprise in her voice.

So much for rhetorical questions. It was as though there were a muffled explosion in the heavens. Truth was in the house.

"But see," the evangelist said, catching on to it, "the blessed part is, when you can admit to your sin, you're on your way. You're on your way."

She continued. "How many folks do we have in here that are envious?"

This time bodies popped up all over the sanctuary as if there were springs in their knees.

"How many people do we have in here that is jealous?"

A whole row stood up in unison. I got up too.

"See, God is good...and I hope y'all are taking notice. God is good."

This went on, leading up to an old-fashioned altar call, the kind where people repent of their sins, publicly if need be. At a moment like this there is no shame. The only goal is to get right with God.

The woman who was first to stand told the entire congregation that she had been in an adulterous relationship for some time. She was also a faithful churchgoer at another house. Something, she said, had drawn her to this church today.

The family of God embraced her. There was no haughtiness; every one of us knew we were guilty of at least one of the sins the evangelist had mentioned.

I guess we could have just said, "Now, now, we've all done some bad things. Just go along on your way and try to do better next time."

But that spirit of truth was there, sending shock waves through the house. We had but two choices: Repent. Or run.

I thought of when Jesus encountered the woman caught in adultery. The religious authorities brought her before him; her adulterous partner was nowhere in sight. "Should we stone her?" they asked.

The question was a trap. Jesus responded by challenging her accusers to deal with their own sin. "He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone."

Most often today, though, that verse is cited by people who wish to excuse their own sin. They miss exactly half the point Jesus is trying to make.

That's why you don't often hear the rest of the passage quoted. After all the accusers had melted away, Jesus turned to the woman and said, "Go, and sin no more."

These days if you point out a sin--something the Word of God makes clear that Christians have a responsibility to do among those who call themselves believers--you're most likely to get an argument. Or, in the 21st century, a lawsuit.

After that unusual Sunday, in fact, a friend (who wasn't present that day) tried to explain to me why what happened really wasn't a good thing, that these kinds of confessions should never be handled openly.

I disagreed very strongly. This is precisely what's needed, I said.

The Holy Spirit--which is Jesus' very presence on earth--is often characterized in the New Testament as the Spirit of Truth. Truth is intrinsic to Jesus' character. No wonder the Word of God reserves perhaps its harshest condemnations for liars.

I do agree that this truth is some scary stuff. I happened to be studying the book of Acts, which records what happened when the Holy Spirit was poured out on Jesus' followers, and a lot of people repented. The Spirit of Truth was cut loose.

One day a married man and woman who'd lied right in the face of one of the apostles in church kicked the bucket in sequence. Boom, boom.

Afterward, "great fear seized the whole church." I'll bet it did.

Amidst this backdrop of fear--fear of God, that is, a reverential awe--the greatest profusion of miracles ever recorded in the Church Age took place. Many people joined the number of believers.

Hey, did you learn that trick in your church-growth focus group?

We're not seeing this fear of God today; hence, people have little appetite for truth, especially as it concerns sin. Few, in fact, are committed to the historic Christian faith. Whether one is Orthodox, Catholic or Protestant, that faith begins with recognition that our sin has separated us from God. There will be no relationship with God absent a reckoning with sin. It is the inescapable reality that Christianity resolves through the blood sacrifice of Jesus Christ. You just can't get around this roadblock. That's why the authentic, biblical Christian faith is so offensive to people.

There is nothing foggy about what constitutes sin in Scripture. You have to be a linguistic contortionist to get around the New Testament's extreme admonitions against lying, greed, hatred, jealousy and sexual immorality.

Or simply ignore them. Consider the thought processes of Jay Bakker, the son of Jim and Tammy Faye who's featured in a reality series that started this week, One Punk Under God. Jay, who's heavily tattooed and sports a soft but vaguely punk look, leads a small church in Atlanta that he calls Revolution. Intriguing stuff.

In episode two, Jay will make a tough decision that could threaten his church: Should he declare himself a gay-affirming minister? Over fast food outdoors on a bright Atlanta day, he discusses it with Amanda [his wife].

"So speaking out in behalf of the gay community and gay Christians is something I should do?" he asks her.

"Absolutely, without question," she agrees, even as she warns there'll be a backlash.

She's right. A conservative foundation wastes no time pulling thousands in funding.

That's OK. "Salvation is free. It's a gift," Jay tells me in New York months later.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I see no fasting, no prayer, no anguished search for the truth of Scripture here. The matter of homosexuality is dividing the church in America at this very moment, yet Jay blithely decides to go with his "passions, his feelings," words he uses to characterize the gay dilemma.

Oh, but he means well, we tell ourselves.

As if it matters in the end. --Julie Lyons

Bible Girl postscript: Sorry, Harvey. I never did get around to posting another comment on last week's column. But we're not through yet, are we?

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Comments (23)

Will says:

Nice to see someone speaking openly about the Christian faith today, even if it's not what I expected when I surfed over to this site. :-)

Posted On: Thursday, Dec. 14 2006 @ 1:03PM
Frostee says:

Way to work in the gay angle. Thought you weren't going to go there this time, then boom -- out of nowhere and for no real reason. Not unlike leading with the shuttle disaster.

Posted On: Thursday, Dec. 14 2006 @ 2:38PM
jack e. jett says:

i love that julie lyons can connect the space shuttle disaster to gays. the best part is she does it next to a phallic corn dog that says "bite me".

the question is why is this woman so obsessed with gay people? most likely it is because she has not come to terms with her own sexuality. anyone that is gay knows you can not pray it away. so she has an internal struggle going on and it helps her to vent. we all know that. she is no more an ex gay than i am.

why does it seem that the only issue that evangelical christians have to deal with is homosexuality? why is this issue so important to them? not homelessness, hunger, child abuse, murder, war, disease, or helping to create harmony in the world.....NO...it is those darn gays.

why does julie lyons never...NEVER respond to questions about the paper full of sex ads that pay her salary? she will take money that promotes gay sex, yet always makes an attempt to bring attention to our sinning. the hypocrisy is smothering.

why does she continue to do this? it is the ann coulter/ann heche syndrome. it is her need for attention. church members pat her on the back. others consider her "so brave" for speaking out against the homos. brave people step outside their comfort zone. brave people have no fear of thier brain falling out from opening their minds.

where is the pagan point of view, the atheist, the jewish, the transexual? why do we only get the pentecostal point of view? why is julie lyons fearful of a halloween celebration?

jay bakker is "brave". julie lyons is a person with pen power.

how you ever connected the space shuttle explosion with jay bakker and gay people is example of your extremist views.

you really should retitle this to "bullshit girl".

btw......love the emails. good to hear the bible has been translated into klingon.

jack jett

Posted On: Thursday, Dec. 14 2006 @ 3:18PM
Julie Lyons says:

Jack,

I've publicly addressed the matter of the Observer's ads before, as I'm sure you're aware. Nonetheless I'll summarize my response: I don't like the Observer's sex ads at all. But I don't own the paper, and I don't work in the advertising department. Hence, I have no control over the ads.

There are many great things about working for Village Voice Media--chief among them, editorial freedom and the opportunity to work with an incredibly talented and diverse staff of writers, editors and designers. I weigh those rare qualities against the sex ads I can't control, and VVM comes out looking pretty good.

Of the many Bible Girl posts I've written since August, four have had homosexuality as their principal subject. That seems about right for what is undoubtedly the biggest, most divisive issue in the American church right now.

In contrast, I believe every single thing I've ever posted on Bible Girl has elicited a comment from you about homosexuality, including columns I wrote about creationism, prosperity teaching, the film Jesus Camp, and so on.

Now who's the one who's obsessed?

Posted On: Thursday, Dec. 14 2006 @ 3:50PM
jack e. jett says:

julie

you are the one obsessed. you are the one connecting the space shuttle ot homosexuality.

it is your religion who can't get beyond it.

please do not go convincing yourself that your extremist views do not reflect in the coverage
in the dallas observer.

if i understand the bible correctly, the sex ads are a form of sin. it is a constant. you know that phrase you guys like to use.....love the sinner hate the sin.......well, if you are taking money from these ads, then you are sinning every single moment of every single day...that these ad are out on the street.
our precious children could see these ads. true christians might find them offensive. what sort of message is that sending to our community? is this promoting monogomy? some might say that you are placing pornography all over our city. i can't even go out to eat breakfast that i am not faced with a container full of dallas observer sex ads.

it just seems that you would be so much more happier working for the pentecostal weekly. you could submerse yourself in your religion of choice and never have to worry about producing heathen material again.

you see, julie, it is the hypocrisy of the situation that bothers people like me. rev ted can have all the homo sex he wants, but don't preach to me about being a sinner. the catholic church can promote celibacy, but leave the little boys alone,
george w bush is free to believe his evangelical ways, he is not free to kill others to make them believe it.

you put yourself upon a pedastal with regards to homosexuality, creationism, and quoting the mcnutts,
however, you are sinning every second of every day that a dallas observer is sitting out in public where anyone can have access to what some consider a level of pornography, or at least porno promotion.

now.....let's get to a point that we can agree on.
take us out of the equation. my buddies, gay and straight, wonder why the chirstian community is so
taken with the issue of homosexuality,when it seems, as my dad use to say, there are bigger fish to fry. i understand that some of it has to do with a percieved weakness. gays don't bash back. gays are easy to bash. at some point, do you think that you christians will move on to someone or something else.

i just completed an extensive interview with becky fisher from "jesus camp" and i ask her what could be done to bring together the gay community and the christian community. we came to the conclusion that there is a lot of misinformation on both sides and that it is heated with passion. becky and i have started a conversation. she asked me when i was planning on going through my sex change. she is confused between gay people, transexuals, etc.

julie, i understand that i am too an extremist. i never had a coming out...i was ..just out with an attitude of take me or leave me as i am.

let's find a way to work together.

i don't hate christians, i just hate their clothes
(that is a joke)

jack jett

Posted On: Thursday, Dec. 14 2006 @ 5:08PM
Harvey Lacey says:

Bible Girl postscript: Sorry, Harvey. I never did get around to posting another comment on last week's column. But we're not through yet, are we?

That wasn't another shuttle explosion girl (term of endearment). It was a shot across your brow.

Posted On: Thursday, Dec. 14 2006 @ 5:20PM
Justin says:

Jack,

Please, for the love of God, or the Gay community, or whoever, hold down the shift key as you strike the key for the first letter of each sentence, the first letter of proper nouns, or when using "i" as a pronoun.

Thanks

Posted On: Thursday, Dec. 14 2006 @ 11:06PM
Justin says:

Julie,

You write...

"Correct me if I'm wrong, but I see no fasting, no prayer, no anguished search for the truth of Scripture here. The matter of homosexuality is dividing the church in America at this very moment, yet Jay blithely decides to go with his "passions, his feelings," words he uses to characterize the gay dilemma."

My whole problem with the Evangelicals I know is that fasting, prayer, and searches for truth are meaningless if the truth discovered deviates from what is in the bible. (Supposedly) the bible is the word of God, His rules for how we are to live, there is no ambiguity there, no room for interpretation. The Old Testament says homosexuality is wrong so no amount of inward reflection or fasting would make his conclusion defensible, just a waste of time.

From the evangelicals I know personally I get the sense that it requires you to disregard reason and just blindly follow the "party line", in other words, what the bible says, no exceptions.

(I promise this story isn't made up)...
About five years ago one of my friends that started running with an Evangelical crowd told another friend, Stephen, that he was a sinner. What was this Stephen's offense? As a firefighter he worked on Sundays, people insisting on starting fires, having heart attacks, and what not on the Sabbath. It was only after being bludgeoned with reason did he go back to get clarification from his bible teacher. Luckily we found out Stephen isn't going to hell after all.

I'm always intrigued by how different the New and Old Testaments are. I'm down with the New, being the basis of my religion and all. Jesus laid out what was right and wrong, but there was always room for forgiveness. He was a compassionate God. The Old Testament God was kind of a prick (since you are reading this it means I wasn't struck down where I sat lending credence to my compassionate theory). The Old Testament God killed people by the city load for what often appears to be nothing more than a whim. A Jewish author, David Plotz, is currently writing a series about his reading of the bible for Slate.com (http://www.slate.com/id/2150150/) and he points out a lot of instances where God wouldn't be described as compassionate and loving but instead petty and insecure (Job getting screwed so God could prove something to Satan, as if). The long and short of it is, there are two different Gods in the bible, and it seems be that a lot of hate and intolerance finds justification in the Old Testament God. I can't view the bible as an unquestionable source of guidelines to live by and believe the entirety of the bible was written by one person, a la God via various men.

Posted On: Thursday, Dec. 14 2006 @ 11:53PM
Harvey Lacey says:

Nate Bostian said earlier, What I find interesting is the sheer amount of anger, even hate, generated by simply attributing a beautiful experience to God. People (rightly) get angry about neo-con Christians and other types of fundamentalists who use Christ as a mascot for some type of us-versus-them exclusion fest. And, people rightly can point to the jihad/crusade as the horrible (but logical) consequence of such thought.

But, if religion is all so bad, so exclusive, and so hateful, then one would expect that folk who claim no religion would be the most peaceful folk on the planet.

But, sadly, the opposite seems true. Bible girl attributes a healing to Jesus and she is verbally beaten up for it by supposed "free-thinkers" (read: athiest fundamentalists).

Look, I know how %$#& frustrating it can be to grow up and live in buckle of the Bible belt. And I know how hypocritical Bible-belt religion can be. And I know how turned off to Jesus someone can get from seeing all of this.

But, it seems like some of you "freethinkers" (Gawd, I love the irony of that title!) have simply traded one hateful fundamentalism for another. If someone is willing to verbally bash someone else (like Bible girl) with such intensity because she does not share your rather closed belief system, how long is it before that will turn into physical bashing as well? And how hypocritical is it to bash someone else's beliefs in the name of being "open minded"?

Nate help me out here. I see you're seeing me as offensive. You see Jack Jett the same way. You're wrong. Our responses are defensive.

There are still laws on the books in some states where because I'm an atheist I can't serve on a jury or run for public office. How big a knot would be in your skirt if you weren't allowed the rights given to you under the Constitution just because you're a Christian? Accentuate that with an acceptance in your heart that the reasons those laws are still on the books is because they're still a public sentiment.

Jack suffers from the same official oppression based upon the public confirmation of private ignorance.

What we have to fight is official oppression based solely upon rumors supported by speculation and ignorance. The speculation is Christianity as is the ignorance. Everyday another myth put forth by the Abrahamic faiths is proven wrong. One of the wonderful things about our instant information highway and media world today is it now only takes years instead of generations for those myths to be debunked in the perceptions of the public.

So Nate do me a favor. The next time a no captialization rant by Jack or an anti-Christian post by me makes the shirt feel too tight do a little "in their shoes thing." Step back and pretend that the tenets of your faith weren't being attacked by reason and or science but only because they aren't popular. Sit down and do a rant and see if it's all about love and kindness.

Posted On: Friday, Dec. 15 2006 @ 9:37AM
Harvey Lacey says:

Julie what's the difference between Jay welcoming homosexuals into the fold and Olsteen welcoming all those folks praying for wealth into the Christian camp?

Posted On: Friday, Dec. 15 2006 @ 9:45AM
Justin says:

"Julie what's the difference between Jay welcoming homosexuals into the fold and Olsteen welcoming all those folks praying for wealth into the Christian camp?"

You've got to be kidding me.

The example of Jay and his reality show does not make the distinction as to whether he believes homosexuality to be innate or simply a lifestyle. If he believes it to be a lifestyle choice then he is doing nothing more than pandering and trying to reacher a new demographic, in essence he would be a hypocritical little shit for embracing rather than condemning what his bible tells him is wrong. However if he believes homosexuality to be innate then to compare his acceptance to that of a prosperity preacher is absurd, it's not even an apples and oranges comparison. If homosexuality is innate then from a theological standpoint it is how God made you and for a religion to find fault with one God's creations would be a supreme act of hubris. It doesn't have anything to do with Olsteen welcoming people who are suckered into tithing their way into the the good life.

I think the lack of context in the example of Jay Bakker makes it unsuitable for the comparison. The argument could be made that since he states that "Salvation is free" he believes homosexuality to be a lifestyle choice, however I'm straight but Catholic so in his eyes I'm hell bound as well. We just don't know enough about his beliefs outside of the vapid conversation he had with his wife.

Posted On: Friday, Dec. 15 2006 @ 10:36AM
jack e. jett says:

justin;

i know that i have an issue to work through with the
shift key. i am a bit shiftophobic. i was abused not only by the shift key but by caps lock as well when i was but a young lap topper. i have prayed and worked hard to acccept the shift key, but i still look at it as a lifestyle choice.

yet, the funny thing is that i can always use them when discussing my dogs, Bruiser, Bubba, Cowboy,
Hey Dude, and our newest pit bull, Karma. so you must agree i have priorities.

thank you for pointing out my lack of shiftyness in a most kind way.

jack jett

Posted On: Friday, Dec. 15 2006 @ 10:50AM
Julie Lyons says:

Harvey,

I believe everyone should be welcomed into the fold--"Come as you are..." BUT don't stay the way you came, inasmuch as you're involved in sin.

This is Jesus' approach precisely to the woman caught in adultery: I don't condemn you, he said. But "Go, and sin no more."

Once we know the truth of Scripture, we are responsible for it. When the Holy Spirit has convicted us of our sin, we are faced with a choice: accept or reject God. Fortunately, thankfully, mercifully, Jesus provides "sufficient grace" for us to accept his truth and live in his truth. If we're committed to that truth--his Word--there is grace and mercy when we stumble, too. We may stumble, the Word of God says, but we will not fall.

By the way, Jack, you're right about the clothes. I'm a walking, talking fashion disaster myself.

Posted On: Friday, Dec. 15 2006 @ 10:58AM
jack e. jett says:

I'm a walking, talking fashion disaster myself.
------------------------------------

omg....julie we do have something in common.

i am, by far the worst dressed homo on the planet earth, except when on tv and there is someone else selecting the clothes.

jack jett

Posted On: Friday, Dec. 15 2006 @ 11:49AM
Harvey Lacey says:

Hmmmmmmm, ya'll need to come with me to a fitting and find that fashion can be thrilling in it's own way.

As for the question about Jay and Olsteen. There's little difference. Both are using the bait that will work for the fish they're after.

They're also both dressed for the part. Which I guess explains all the fashion b.s. here today.

Posted On: Friday, Dec. 15 2006 @ 4:24PM
Harvey Lacey says:

Hmmmmmm, picture link didn't work. I wanted Jack and Julie forgetting about the hill and buckets of water for a minute. Real man doing real men things

Posted On: Friday, Dec. 15 2006 @ 4:28PM
jack e. jett says:

harvey

is that a man giving birth in the air?

if so, i want him on the "queeredge".

jack jett

Posted On: Friday, Dec. 15 2006 @ 5:51PM
Zero says:

Try hang-gliding Harvey. You get to be Icarus and catch a lot more airtime than a skydiver. Besides, it is aesthetically gorgeous to float from cloud to cloud, and do what until the last 100 years or so was mythic. It is an amazing high to be 3,000 or 4,000 feet up and feel the full freedom of three dimensions as oppose to the 2.1-D world we walk through on a day to day basis.

Posted On: Friday, Dec. 15 2006 @ 11:41PM
Harvey Lacey says:

Harvey,

I believe everyone should be welcomed into the fold—"Come as you are..." BUT don't stay the way you came, inasmuch as you're involved in sin.

This is Jesus' approach precisely to the woman caught in adultery: I don't condemn you, he said. But "Go, and sin no more."

Once we know the truth of Scripture, we are responsible for it. When the Holy Spirit has convicted us of our sin, we are faced with a choice: accept or reject God. Fortunately, thankfully, mercifully, Jesus provides "sufficient grace" for us to accept his truth and live in his truth. If we're committed to that truth—his Word—there is grace and mercy when we stumble, too. We may stumble, the Word of God says, but we will not fall. Julie Lyons

Morning Julie, this would make a great topic for continuing conversation. I don't believe in sin, might be because of my lack of faith in God.

I'm running short on time because I've got jalopenas roasting in the kitchen. The whole house has this wonderful sinus clearing odor of the gods feeling frisky. I'll peel the peppers and then soak them in a sweet brine my wife makes. Think of a sweet pickle taste without the cucumber dullness that bites back.

Thursday we had the youngest grandkids. Kids were going to a Christmas party so we got the four month old, along with the two and five year olds.

Sometimes we do things that can only be defined as intuitive if we're generous and cause we can if we aren't.

The two and a half year old has always used the high chair. It's one of those one shot through the extruder plastic things that on the bad days can be hosed off for cleaning. We're used to him treating the platter surface of the highchair as an extension of his plate. Messy, messy, but he's close to perfection as a person can get in our eyes so that's okay.

For some unknown reason I suggested we not use the high chair and instead have him sit where his daddy sits. So we got out the booster and put him at the table with the rest of us.

The first thing he did was miss a stroke with his spoon and we had peas on the table. My first thought as I acted like I hadn't noticed was that I'd done a stupid thing. We'd have one heckuva mess to clean up.

Without looking up he reached out and picked up the peas one by one and put them on his spoon and then ate them. When supper was over and it was time to clean up his place at the table was as clean as ours.

Two important considerations here for us. The first of course was always before he'd gotten neutral to slightly negative feedback over messy eating, he's a baby after all. Next his good table manners were taught by example and even though no one had ever told him to eat like a little gentleman evidently he'd been taking notes.

It's enough to make a grandpa pridefull. But what it shows is children learn by example first and foremost. Evidently even at two he wanted to be like his dad at the table as much as he liked being there just to eat.

Isn't it the same with what you define as sin?

I love your using the wanton woman and her adulterous ways as you example of sin and forgiveness. As you know abusive sex, especially the self inflicting kind, is only a symptom of something else being wrong. Jesus had to have either fixed what was broken or He treated just the symptoms which doesn't work unless you're dealing with something like AID's where maintenance is the best one can hope for.

What was counterproductive in Jesus' example of healing this woman of her sexual improprieties is He used something that most of the people didn't find an issue in their own lives. I believe He would have got more lessons per example if He'd used something that everyone finds awkward, say like being less judgemental of others.

His using promiscuity as defining sin reflected their concept of sin and his ability to cure sin. Promiscuity, again, isn't a sin most of us have to deal with on a daily basis. It's also a bad example because it is first a sin of opportunity. Obese hairy old men aren't as tempting and therefore tempted as a virile lean mean loving machine of a man would be. Our son is the perfect example of that. He walks into the room and almost all of the women along with some of the men lay their hearts and other vulnerable parts at his feet.

It's also a poor example because each and every one of us has a different interest in sex at different times in our lives. If you were on the Titanic as it was going down you'd be more likely in trouble over thoughts of promiscuity if you were eighteen and in full bloom. Than if you were eighty and closer to being a prune than a plum.

I guess that's the major problem I have with organized religion. It's more about curing others of sin than it is becoming a better person ourselves. Think about it. Don't you believe that Christianity would be more acceptable as a faith if Jesus had concentrated more upon how to be a better person than healing one woman of a sexual addiction?

If He's taught teaching instead of judging, well, I guess that's a moot point, He'd been an atheist.

Posted On: Saturday, Dec. 16 2006 @ 8:08AM
Harvey Lacey says:

As I was peeling the thin skin (now I know why they say thin skinned people are so caustic) off the jalopenas this morning I had Jesus moment.

It hit me that if Jesus had peeled thin skin off of roasted jalopenas he would have turned it into a metaphor about life. It would have helped Him in defining temptation and consequences. There is this overwhelming temptation to wipe one's nose while jalopena skinning one oh one. Understanding the consequences of succumbing to that temptation gives one moral strength.

Posted On: Saturday, Dec. 16 2006 @ 9:47AM
rich says:

Harvey,

I love that! Jesus would totally would use a simple story like that to illustrate a point. Pssst. Don't look now but...the Spirit is speaking through you.

Posted On: Wednesday, Dec. 20 2006 @ 3:24PM
ScottO says:

Harvey,

The roasted jalape�os sound good, but I think maybe your wife is putting something in the brine. The example is perfect; not because it defines sin (not even close to the point of this story — how'd you get that?) but because it defines how we are to act in the face of sin, both the sins of others and our own.

I find it entirely believable that a large group of Christians would get together and, empowered by their numbers and the collective conceit that always seem to infect gatherings of the like-minded, seek to do harm to someone they perceive as sinful. Don't you?

Stoning is out of vogue these days, but if this story were written just a few years ago some non-profit called Families for a Virtuous America could petition that said sinner be denied medical coverage due to there "lifestyle choices". Jesus could then address the masses: He who is without sin name your beneficiary...

Harvey, the story does not define sin, it defines us. We have all been the mob. We have all been the woman.

For example in the posts above, it is so important for jack to discredit Julie that he is basically using a public forum in attempt to disgrace her (she calls herself a Christian yet works for sinners!) so that she will change her ways and begin living her life with a value system more similar to his own. Sound familiar? It's OK jack, the mob always has room for one more.

And Harvey, do we really need to revisit the obese, hairy old men? I've been to a couple of bachelor parties in my day and while these guys may live on Lonely Street, they're not afraid to stop by Baby Dolls on the way home. As a person who, like so much Jimmy Carter, has "lust in my heart", I wish sexual sin was "first a sin of opportunity". But because of the lesson in John 8, I do know what to do about it. I am to go (back to work, back to my wife and kids, back to the path that God has given me) and sin no more.

Posted On: Wednesday, Dec. 20 2006 @ 4:38PM
jack e. jett says:

scott
it is so important for jack to discredit Julie that he is basically using a public forum in attempt to disgrace her
__________________

jack likes to have fun with hypocrisy....that's all.
he pisses off a lot people in the process.
i don't need to disgrace evangelicals, they do that by themselves very well.

i just don't want people to feel guilty if they can not pray their cancer, gayness, or president away.

i love julie lyons. i think she is a brilliant writer. i know that i am a sinner and wish that i could be more like julie et all.

i am never ever going to sin again

jesus came to me last night and told me that he want all of you to watch my show on world of wonder tv to help celebrate his birthday. he wants you guys to wathc it over and over and over, at least 6 to 10 bucks worth in order to recieve a special message he is sending you this holiday season.

http://jack-e-jett.wowtv.tv/

jack jett
shameless act of self promotion.

Posted On: Wednesday, Dec. 20 2006 @ 7:28PM

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